If there was life elsewhere...

[SaulToPaul]

Then the Sovereignty of Jehovah should not be an issue... But it is.

If life existed elsewhere, then Jehovah would have no point to prove. His sovereignty would already have been vindicated, and there would be no need to keep up with allowing suffering to continue. He could simply destroy the rebels, and move on.

Adam and Eve and Satan all rebelled at the same time. He could have simply destroyed them and started fresh, but it's not like there was only those 3 involved. There were hundreds of millions of angels paying attention to how Jehovah handled this situation. If Jehovah would have destroyed Satan, Adam and Eve, then no point would have been proven. Jehovah would have just been a tyrant. Instead, he allowed all to partake in this scenario that has been underway for over 6,000 years. He has given us every opportunity to rule ourselves to show that we can not rule ourselves. Have we done a good job? He has allowed Satan chance after chance to attempt to do what only Jehovah can do, which is, create peace and serenity. Paradise. Has he been able to?

Do you know that Satan won the first round? When Jehovah allowed Satan to live, Satan and his demons (simply bad angels) had fun, instead of doing what Jehovah allowed Satan to do (create peace). The world was so bad in round one, that Jehovah had to flood the world to remove the wicked. And unfortunately, Satan had to be given another chance. This time though, he and his demons were confined to heaven, able to travel only in spirit form. No more physical form. No more mating with human women.

So, in round two (the current round), Satan still has dominion over the world, but there are clearly defined rules. Jehovah has known that Satan is going to fail. There are so many prophecies about it. But that has not stopped Satan from trying. Nor mankind.

After it's all said and done, after the resurrection, when Satan is destroyed, and all of the wicked are once again destroyed, once and for all, then the earth will be returned to it's paradise state, as was originally intended. At that point, if an angel were to stand up and do what Satan did, or an human were to stand up and do what Adam and Eve did, saying "I or we think we can do Jehovah's job better than Him", then Jehovah would have no cause to let the new rebels live. The point has been proven. All of intelligent creation will be able to stand up in union, and say with a loud voice "NO YOU CAN'T!", and peace and security can reign for eternity. History will have been written. He gave us and Satan ample opportunity to create peace. He and we have failed.

When you start to look at things like this, everything starts to make sense. It's logical.

All life has free will. Only humans and angels truly understand what that means. There is no such thing as "it was God's will". The only "will" he has, is that all come to repentance and come back to him as willing slaves. But, that is still the problem. No one wants to give up their life to do Jehovah's will.

Give it up. You are fighting a losing battle. Here is something very important: Everyone who dies before the resurrection will be given a second chance at the resurrection. But those who do not make the correct choice and die at Armageddon, they die for eternity. That time will probably happen very shortly. Fortunately for you, you won't go to Hell, because it doesn't exist. Romans 6:23 "the wages of sin is death", not "the wages of sin is Hell". When you die, you. Are. Dead. Period. No soul. You ARE the soul, as referred to in the Bible. One other scripture to prove that you don't go to Hell; Jeremiah 7:31 "They have built the high places of To'pheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hin'nom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart." These are Jehovah's words.

These are things that the Word says. If you want to know a lot more logical reasoning, I would love to teach you what is known to Jehovah's Witnesses as "The Truth".

God is love. He is only allowing things to happen because he has to. If he intervenes, then the point won't be proven. Come to him while you can. There are almost 9 million of us, and we are most definitely not a cult, lol. Type "define: cult" into Google. We worship Jehovah, not a man, and we are not sinister. We are true Christians. Do you know what the word Christian means? "Christ-like". If you claim Christianity, then you are REQUIRED to walk as that one did. To the very best of your ability.

I hope to hear from you. I can answer your questions, and if I can't, I can get the answer. The Holy Spirit is amazing.

Best regards,

-Paul

[SaulToPaul]

[Replying to post 8 by Divine Insight]

Things are about to turn out how He wanted. Make a decision.

[SaulToPaul]

[Replying to post 6 by Divine Insight

Why can't God be simple? Why do people make him complicated? The Bible is not complicated, especially if you are using a true and accurate translation. It's all this philosophy that is damaging the reputation of Jehovah God.

It's very very simple. Live your life holy just as Jesus did, accept his ransom, EXERCISE faith, preach the good news of the kingdom, love your neighbor, and most importantly, LOVE YOUR CREATOR. If you do these things, it's amazing what will happen to your life. I am a living example, just as many others are.

But, since you have such strong opinions, and WANT to not believe, there is nothing that we can do for you. So, just like it is said in the Bible, reject a divisive man after the first or second admonition.

I hope that you make the right decision before the time comes and it's too late. Jehovah loves those that love him, he will protect them at all cost, and in order to keep the ones he loves safe and secure, he will fulfill his promise and do 2 more wipes of the earth, neither of which there is any coming back from. Everlasting destruction so those that are left can live in peace on the very earth we live on now, except, as perfect individuals once again, thanks to the Second Adam.

[myth-one.com]

Hello, SaulToPaul,

There is a problem with your initial posting.

That problem is that spiritual beings such as Satan and the angels are immortal beings which cannot be killed.

When Jehovah allowed Satan to live . . .

Jehovah had no other choice than to allow Satan to live.

. . . if an angel were to stand up and do what Satan did, or an human were to stand up and do what Adam and Eve did, saying "I or we think we can do Jehovah's job better than Him", then Jehovah would have no cause to let the new rebels live.

Except for the fact that Jehovah created rebel angels as immortal spiritual beings which cannot be killed!

Why is the sovereignty of Jehovah in question?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 13 by myth-one.com]

Why do you keep saying that spirits are all immortal? Surely this is an assumption on your part because there is no scripture that states this.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 13 by myth-one.com]

Why do you keep saying that spirits are all immortal? Surely this is an assumption on your part because there is no scripture that states this.

Two body types are described in the Bible:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

Each of the two body types require a separate and distinct type of birth:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

Here is how Paul describes the resurrection of believers to everlasting life at the Second Coming of Christ:

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (I Corinthians 15:42-45)

The Christian body that is sown is corruptible, dishonored, weak, and a natural body.

This is the physical body which is buried like a seed, or sown, when we die.

At the resurrection, Christians are raised up as incorruptible, glorified, powerful, spiritual bodies.

Natural bodies are corruptible -- they can die.

Spiritual bodies are incorruptible -- they are immortal.

Mankind is born from natural physical bodies mainly composed of and carried in water. It should be indisputably obvious that we can die.

But here it is from the scriptures:

And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Hebrews 9:27)

Speaking of those who shall inherit the Kingdom of God in the world to come, Jesus states that we will no longer be subject to any death:

Neither can they die any more, for they are equal unto the angels... (Luke 20:36)

Definition of immortal: not mortal; not liable or subject to death; living forever.

Equal unto the angels means incorruptible, glorified, powerful, spiritual bodies.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (John 3:5-7)

To enter the kingdom of God, a man must be born of the Spirit.

And that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

And spiritual beings like the angels never die.

And the definition of immortal is not capable of dying.

Therefore, all spiritual bodies are immortal.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 15 by myth-one.com]

I am aware humans are not immortal and spirits are another life form but my question was why do you assume ALL spirits are immortal, rather than some are given/rewarded with immortality. Where are you specifically getting this from? Is it your interpretation of the "children of the resurrection" in Luke who I agree will be rewarded with immortality (as was Jesus)?

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 15 by myth-one.com]

I am aware humans are not immortal and spirits are another life form but my question was why do you assume ALL spirits are immortal, rather than some are given/rewarded with immortality. Where are you specifically getting this from? Is it your interpretation of the "children of the resurrection" in Luke who I agree will be rewarded with immortality (as was Jesus)?

There are two "life forms" -- natural and spiritual.

Natural mankind gains immortality by being born again of the Spirit as a spirit.

If your mortal spirit is already a spirit -- he is a spirit because he was already born of the Spirit:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

So how does your "mortal" spirit gain immortality?

[JehovahsWitness]

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

Yes you keep repeating what you believe, and respect that is what you were told, taught or conclude, but why are you concluding that all spirits are automatically immortal (rather than given rewarded with immortality as per Hebrews that speaks of Jesus' immortality as a "child of the resurrection" following his faithful course?

Is it based on John 3:6? this sheds no light on the question. Immortality is not a word mentioned many times in the bible, but when it is it is ALWAYS mentioned in connnection with the faithful which would lead us to believe the two are connected. In any case is it just an assumption that all spirits (faithful or not) are created immortal?

[myth-one.com]

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

Yes you keep repeating what you believe, and respect that is what you were told, taught or conclude, but why are you concluding that all spirits are automatically immortal (rather than given rewarded with immortality as per Hebrews that speaks of Jesus' immortality as a "child of the resurrection" following his faithful course?

Is it based on John 3:6? this sheds no light on the question. Immortality is not a word mentioned many times in the bible, but when it is it is ALWAYS mentioned in connnection with the faithful which would lead us to believe the two are connected. In any case is it just an assumption that all spirits (faithful or not) are created immortal?

The only beings who will be given or rewarded with immortality are humans who believe in Jesus as their Savior. We will be changed into spirits.

Man was created originally with two differences between him and the angels! These two differences between men and angels are described in the book of Genesis. They are body type and knowledge of good and evil.

Upon eating from the Tree of Knowledge, man was closer to being like the angels because he knews good from evil. The remaining difference is body type, physical versus spiritual. Man was expelled from the Garden of Eden so that he could not eat from the tree of life and become immortal like the angels.

Only physical beings die.

Spirits are spiritual beings -- and cannot die.

[ttruscott]

Then the Sovereignty of Jehovah should not be an issue... But it is.

If life existed elsewhere, then Jehovah would have no point to prove. His sovereignty would already have been vindicated, and there would be no need to keep up with allowing suffering to continue. He could simply destroy the rebels, and move on.

Please consider:
HEAVENLY LIFE IS THE LIFE ELSEWHERE! The evil here is the evil that will be destroyed one way or another and then life in the heavens will move along as previously panned.

HE did not allow evil here to prove a point, how simplistically cruel, but to postpone the judgement day so it does not destroy HIS sinful elect who are under HIS promise of salvation as they are the good seed in the parable of Matt 13:28 “ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

29 “ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. It is the sinfulness of some of HIS elect, the good seed who are the people of HIS kingdom, that causes evil to remain in existence in this place and to not be destroyed, yet.

Adam and Eve and Satan all rebelled at the same time.

Curious, orthodoxy claims the serpent came into the garden already fallen into evil and with an evil intent before Adam and Eve chose to eat... What is your reason for espousing this radical thought?