If there was life elsewhere...

[SaulToPaul]

Then the Sovereignty of Jehovah should not be an issue... But it is.

If life existed elsewhere, then Jehovah would have no point to prove. His sovereignty would already have been vindicated, and there would be no need to keep up with allowing suffering to continue. He could simply destroy the rebels, and move on.

Adam and Eve and Satan all rebelled at the same time. He could have simply destroyed them and started fresh, but it's not like there was only those 3 involved. There were hundreds of millions of angels paying attention to how Jehovah handled this situation. If Jehovah would have destroyed Satan, Adam and Eve, then no point would have been proven. Jehovah would have just been a tyrant. Instead, he allowed all to partake in this scenario that has been underway for over 6,000 years. He has given us every opportunity to rule ourselves to show that we can not rule ourselves. Have we done a good job? He has allowed Satan chance after chance to attempt to do what only Jehovah can do, which is, create peace and serenity. Paradise. Has he been able to?

Do you know that Satan won the first round? When Jehovah allowed Satan to live, Satan and his demons (simply bad angels) had fun, instead of doing what Jehovah allowed Satan to do (create peace). The world was so bad in round one, that Jehovah had to flood the world to remove the wicked. And unfortunately, Satan had to be given another chance. This time though, he and his demons were confined to heaven, able to travel only in spirit form. No more physical form. No more mating with human women.

So, in round two (the current round), Satan still has dominion over the world, but there are clearly defined rules. Jehovah has known that Satan is going to fail. There are so many prophecies about it. But that has not stopped Satan from trying. Nor mankind.

After it's all said and done, after the resurrection, when Satan is destroyed, and all of the wicked are once again destroyed, once and for all, then the earth will be returned to it's paradise state, as was originally intended. At that point, if an angel were to stand up and do what Satan did, or an human were to stand up and do what Adam and Eve did, saying "I or we think we can do Jehovah's job better than Him", then Jehovah would have no cause to let the new rebels live. The point has been proven. All of intelligent creation will be able to stand up in union, and say with a loud voice "NO YOU CAN'T!", and peace and security can reign for eternity. History will have been written. He gave us and Satan ample opportunity to create peace. He and we have failed.

When you start to look at things like this, everything starts to make sense. It's logical.

All life has free will. Only humans and angels truly understand what that means. There is no such thing as "it was God's will". The only "will" he has, is that all come to repentance and come back to him as willing slaves. But, that is still the problem. No one wants to give up their life to do Jehovah's will.

Give it up. You are fighting a losing battle. Here is something very important: Everyone who dies before the resurrection will be given a second chance at the resurrection. But those who do not make the correct choice and die at Armageddon, they die for eternity. That time will probably happen very shortly. Fortunately for you, you won't go to Hell, because it doesn't exist. Romans 6:23 "the wages of sin is death", not "the wages of sin is Hell". When you die, you. Are. Dead. Period. No soul. You ARE the soul, as referred to in the Bible. One other scripture to prove that you don't go to Hell; Jeremiah 7:31 "They have built the high places of To'pheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hin'nom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart." These are Jehovah's words.

These are things that the Word says. If you want to know a lot more logical reasoning, I would love to teach you what is known to Jehovah's Witnesses as "The Truth".

God is love. He is only allowing things to happen because he has to. If he intervenes, then the point won't be proven. Come to him while you can. There are almost 9 million of us, and we are most definitely not a cult, lol. Type "define: cult" into Google. We worship Jehovah, not a man, and we are not sinister. We are true Christians. Do you know what the word Christian means? "Christ-like". If you claim Christianity, then you are REQUIRED to walk as that one did. To the very best of your ability.

I hope to hear from you. I can answer your questions, and if I can't, I can get the answer. The Holy Spirit is amazing.

Best regards,

-Paul

[brianbbs67]

You may get answers. But, may not like them. I think i live by the Word. i don't assume i do and no one else does.

First question. Is Jesus the archangel, Michael?

[Divine Insight]

Then the Sovereignty of Jehovah should not be an issue... But it is.

If life existed elsewhere, then Jehovah would have no point to prove. His sovereignty would already have been vindicated, and there would be no need to keep up with allowing suffering to continue. He could simply destroy the rebels, and move on.

So you believe in a God who is out to prove something to someone? A God who needs to have his sovereignty vindicated?

Sounds like a pretty pathetic God to me.

[SaulToPaul]

[Replying to post 2 by brianbbs67]

Yes. A simple answer.

Before I answer this question in detail, I want you to do something for me. Please Google "what is the most accurate translation of the bible". What does it say?

[SaulToPaul]

[Replying to post 3 by Divine Insight]

It's pathetic to give us a chance, when he could wipe us off the face of the planet and start fresh? If he didn't prove this point, his sovereignty, then the world and the heaven's would continue to be in disarray for all of eternity.

Our Father cares about us. He wants to jump in, but if he does, he doesn't give the opportunity to fail. He told us what he was going to do from the very beginning, and he has consistently followed through with his plans. When he says he is going to do something, he does it.

That doesn't mean he can't or won't change his mind about something. In all reality, there is only one thing that he could not go back on and that was his promise to Adam and Eve that if they ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad, that they would most certainly die in that day (Genesis 2:17). He couldn't go back on his promise then, because Adam and Eve were perfect. Whereas with us, sinners, he can forgive us, because we aren't perfect. By the way, that Tree was a symbol of Jehovah's authority. He had given them everything that they could ever want, and he only asked them not to do ONE thing. The Tree didn't give them any knowledge. They already knew the difference between good and bad. They knew it was BAD to eat from the tree. If you are a father, and you ask your child not to something, something easy, and your child blatantly disrespects you, how can you not lay punishment on them.

I guess that that is where you are lost. He is not "God". He is "Father" and you owe him your life. Just as your biological dad made you, and you respect him, how can we utterly disrespect the One who made all things? Oh, you can't see him? You see him everywhere. Do you have any idea how well designed even the most basic cell is? How about DNA? Have you ever gotten a good look at it?

Don't be a goat. This is your only chance to come to Him. When the doors closes, it will not be reopened to you.

[Divine Insight]

If you are a father, and you ask your child not to something, something easy, and your child blatantly disrespects you, how can you not lay punishment on them.

If you tell your child that something is poison and not to eat it and they do it anyway, is punishments truly in order? I don't think so.

Either the child is just plain stupid, or you are a terrible mentor/parent. Perhaps you let your child alone before they were mature enough to fully understand danger?

I don't buy into the whole punishment thing. IMHO, that's just what a stupid parent would do. It's not what an intelligent parent would do.

I guess that that is where you are lost. He is not "God". He is "Father" and you owe him your life. Just as your biological dad made you, and you respect him, how can we utterly disrespect the One who made all things?

You nailed it right there! He supposedly made everything including Satan, and Adam, and Eve. In fact, according to the Bible he definitely made Adam and Eve. Whether or not he made Satan is an open question.

But that's the point right there. If Adam and Eve are stupid who's fault is that? It could only be the fault of the one who created them.

By the way, you can't compare God to a mortal human father. Human fathers don't "create" their children by design. Therefore a human father is not responsible if their child turns out to be stupid. But a Creator Father God would be totally responsible if Adam and Eve were created to be stupid.

And think about. This isn't about obedience. This is entirely about stupidity.

According to the Bible God told Adam and Eve that if they ate from the tree they would surely die. That's the same as telling them that the tree is poison.

If Adam and Eve then eat from this tree how could they be anything other than purely stupid?

Also, if you are a human father and you tell your children that something is poison and not to eat it, and then someone else comes along and tells them that it's not poison and it's ok to eat it and so they do. Why punish your children? They aren't trying to defy your AUTHORITY, all they are doing is accepting what someone else is telling them.

And besides before they know of the difference between good and evil how could they ever suspect that anyone would lie to them? They couldn't. So the Biblical story is clearly flawed in an extreme way.

Oh, you can't see him? You see him everywhere. Do you have any idea how well designed even the most basic cell is? How about DNA? Have you ever gotten a good look at it?

Sorry but biological creatures are not all that well-designed. In fact they are actually quite poorly designed in many ways. Also, why would this God have created horrible parasites that will gladly eat you from the inside out if they get a chance? Your creator God would need to be a pretty malicious creator to be sure.

Don't be a goat. This is your only chance to come to Him. When the doors closes, it will not be reopened to you.

This is nothing more than religious preaching. Psychological threats aimed at the naive and gullible in the hopes of ensnaring them into a religious cult through fear tactics.

Here is the simple truth. If there exists a benevolent God who values honesty, truth and all that is good, then I have absolutely nothing to fear from that God.

On the other hand, if the God you are preaching of would bring harm to me in any way then he can't be benevolent, he can't value honesty, truth or all that is good.

Your God would necessarily need to be an extremely evil demon. So your religion cannot be true.

There may be a "God", but if there is, it can't have anything to do with your religion because you religion is based on fear tactics and the belittlement of anyone who fails to join and support the cult.

By the way, if God was in a battle with Satan to prove God's superior morality then God lost that war the very moment that he cursed Satan to crawl on his belly and eat dirt for the rest of his day.

He just demonstrated to all the angels and anyone who was watching that he's a hateful vindictive God who won't hesitate to cast evil mean and cruel spells on people.

So Satan would have won the battle right then and there if they were having a contest to see who is morally superior.

You can't have a God acting like a mobster and simultaneously claim that he represents the epitome of morality.

Clearly the Bible does not describe any God. At least not a moral God to be sure.

[JP Cusick]

If you tell your child that something is poison and not to eat it and they do it anyway, is punishments truly in order? I don't think so.

It was not a commandment to not eat the poison - it was a warning.

After that it was not a punishment for eating - it was the consequence.

People are punished by the sin - not for the sin.

We all reap as we sow.

If one reads the story of Adam and Eve correctly then God is sad and unhappy (not angry) that Adam and Eve did a foolish thing.

[Divine Insight]

If one reads the story of Adam and Eve correctly then God is sad and unhappy (not angry) that Adam and Eve did a foolish thing.

Awe. Poor God. It's a shame things didn't turn out the way he had wanted.

By the way, someone needs to tell Jesus then because Jesus has the unrighteous going the way of "everlasting punishment". Apparently you know more about God than Jesus knew.

You need to write your own Bible so others can know God too. Apparently Jesus had no clue.

[JP Cusick]

Jesus has the unrighteous going the way of "everlasting punishment". Apparently you know more about God than Jesus knew.

Punishment is not the same as continuous punishing.

Everlasting punishment is justice, but continual punishing is not.

And Jesus paid the penalty (the punishment) in full for everyone on the cross, FYI.

[SaulToPaul]

[[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 460#896460]Replying to post 8 by Divine Insight[/url

You don't have to be stupid to want to try what you want to try. I have a situation in my life going on right now, where I am leading someone the right way, but they don't want to go that way... at least not the exact direction that I want them to take. They want to find a different route to the same destination. Does that make them stupid?

We were given eternity at the beginning. We were given free will as well. Apparently they must have wanted to exercise that freedom to the fullest. To test the limits. That can not be denied mankind. But... they knew the penalty for doing such and they chose to do what they did. That doesn't by any means make them stupid. There is only so much you can do for someone until you just have to give way and let things happen.

Poor God? No sir, poor mankind. You are the one that is about to deal with the consequences, although you have been given every opportunity to come back to Him.