Isn't the Book of Revelation just a fable and not literal?

[polonius]

http://www.usccb.org/bible/revelation/0

Introduction to Revelation – New American Bible Revised Edition

This much, however, is certain: symbolic descriptions are not to be taken as literal descriptions, nor is the symbolism meant to be pictured realistically. One would find it difficult and repulsive to visualize a lamb with seven horns and seven eyes; yet Jesus Christ is described in precisely such words (Rev 5:6). The author used these images to suggest Christ’s universal (seven) power (horns) and knowledge (eyes). A significant feature of apocalyptic writing is the use of symbolic colors, metals, garments (Rev 1:13–16; 3:18; 4:4; 6:1–8; 17:4; 19:8), and numbers (four signifies the world, six imperfection, seven totality or perfection, twelve Israel’s tribes or the apostles, one thousand immensity). Finally the vindictive language in the book (Rev 6:9–10; 18:1–19:4) is also to be understood symbolically and not literally. The cries for vengeance on the lips of Christian martyrs that sound so harsh are in fact literary devices the author employed to evoke in the reader and hearer a feeling of horror for apostasy and rebellion that will be severely punished by God.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 88 by onewithhim]

However, the number 12 can logically be thought of as literal, as we see when we consider the 12 tribes of Israel, the 12 Apostles, and 12 gates around the temple (see Rev.21:12-14).

I think there can be both literal and metaphorical passages in the Bible, as it is easy to see for example in Matthew's Gospel.....Jesus tells allegorical/metaphorical stories or parables and he also speaks some pretty literal things, e.g., about the hypocrisy of the religious leaders.

A vision is not speaking plainly but conveys its truths in non-literal ways, including numbers; as in the 12 gates, for example.

Numberss 12:

6 He said, “Listen to My words:

“When there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, reveal Myself to them in visions,
I speak to them in dreams.

7 But this is not true of My servant Moses;
he is faithful in all My house.

8 With him I speak face to face,
clearly and not in riddles;
he sees the form of the Lord.

Why then were you not afraid
to speak against my servant Moses?�

Yes, I agree, but what about the literal 12 tribes and 12 Apostles being mentioned?

What specific mentions do you have in mind?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 88 by onewithhim]

However, the number 12 can logically be thought of as literal, as we see when we consider the 12 tribes of Israel, the 12 Apostles, and 12 gates around the temple (see Rev.21:12-14).

I think there can be both literal and metaphorical passages in the Bible, as it is easy to see for example in Matthew's Gospel.....Jesus tells allegorical/metaphorical stories or parables and he also speaks some pretty literal things, e.g., about the hypocrisy of the religious leaders.

A vision is not speaking plainly but conveys its truths in non-literal ways, including numbers; as in the 12 gates, for example.

Numberss 12:

6 He said, “Listen to My words:

“When there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, reveal Myself to them in visions,
I speak to them in dreams.

7 But this is not true of My servant Moses;
he is faithful in all My house.

8 With him I speak face to face,
clearly and not in riddles;
he sees the form of the Lord.

Why then were you not afraid
to speak against my servant Moses?�

Yes, I agree, but what about the literal 12 tribes and 12 Apostles being mentioned?

What specific mentions do you have in mind?

Revelation 21: 12b and 14

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 102 by onewithhim]

You wrote

Yes, I agree, but what about the literal 12 tribes and 12 Apostles being mentioned?

I asked

What specific mentions do you have in mind?

Your answer was

Revelation 21: 12b and 14.

Perhaps literal or actual names, but not literal writing on literal gates.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 102 by onewithhim]

You wrote

Yes, I agree, but what about the literal 12 tribes and 12 Apostles being mentioned?

I asked

What specific mentions do you have in mind?

Your answer was

Revelation 21: 12b and 14.

Perhaps literal or actual names, but not literal writing on literal gates.

If you'll look closely, I didn't include the 12 gates. (Revelation 21: 12b)

So again....if all the numbers in Revelation are not literal (and thus that discounts the idea that the 144,000 are literal), then what about the mention of the 12 tribes of Israel (which actually existed) and the 12 Apostles (which actually existed)?

[brianbbs67]

Just thought again about this. Isn't The Basilica laid out like this??

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 102 by onewithhim]

You wrote

Yes, I agree, but what about the literal 12 tribes and 12 Apostles being mentioned?

I asked

What specific mentions do you have in mind?

Your answer was

Revelation 21: 12b and 14.

Perhaps literal or actual names, but not literal writing on literal gates.

If you'll look closely, I didn't include the 12 gates. (Revelation 21: 12b)

So again....if all the numbers in Revelation are not literal (and thus that discounts the idea that the 144,000 are literal), then what about the mention of the 12 tribes of Israel (which actually existed) and the 12 Apostles (which actually existed)?

My answer remains unchanged.

I included gates as the names are written on them.

You do not accept a literal 12 tribes in chapter 7.

[showme]

[Replying to post 105 by brianbbs67]

A "basilica" is laid out in the form of a pagan cross. Constantine built a basilica for both his two horns like a lamb, Peter and Paul. Constantine's vision at the battle of Milvian bridge was that of conquering the world under the sign of the cross. That vision was from Sol Invictus, the unconquerable sun, whose day of worship is Sunday, the day of the sun, and Constantine's Roman church is still conquering under the sign of the pagan cross. Such as spreading the false gospel of the cross, from the false prophet Paul, and leading the "many" to destruction. (Mt 7:13)

[marco]

[Replying to post 96 by marco]

I'm sorry I just thought you might be interested in my input. I'm afraid I don't understand a lot of your post but I would just like to clarify that I didn't say we had any definitive interpretation, sometimes we are right, sometimes we are wrong. Jehovah's Witnesses don't claim infallibility.

Sorry I didn't make that clear, please forgive that oversight. Anyway, just ignore my post, just adding my 2c.

Too late, alas, JW, for that humble advice. I have already unignored it. If, as you say, you are sometimes right and sometimes wrong about your beliefs, this opens a whole new chapter. Perhaps next week you will be attending a Wednesday audience in St. Peter's Square in Rome or perhaps having tea and doughnuts with Dawkins. Who knows? My warm wishes.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 102 by onewithhim]

You wrote

Yes, I agree, but what about the literal 12 tribes and 12 Apostles being mentioned?

I asked

What specific mentions do you have in mind?

Your answer was

Revelation 21: 12b and 14.

Perhaps literal or actual names, but not literal writing on literal gates.

If you'll look closely, I didn't include the 12 gates. (Revelation 21: 12b)

So again....if all the numbers in Revelation are not literal (and thus that discounts the idea that the 144,000 are literal), then what about the mention of the 12 tribes of Israel (which actually existed) and the 12 Apostles (which actually existed)?

My answer remains unchanged.

I included gates as the names are written on them.

You do not accept a literal 12 tribes in chapter 7.

I do not accept that they are referring to physical Israel, for all the reasons mentioned. But the number of the physical tribes of Israel is literal, and so is the number of the Apostles. If the literal number is used for the Apostles in Revelation 21, then perhaps we can look at 144,000 as literal.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 109 by onewithhim]

I do not accept that they are referring to physical Israel, for all the reasons mentioned. But the number of the physical tribes of Israel is literal, and so is the number of the Apostles. If the literal number is used for the Apostles in Revelation 21, then perhaps we can look at 144,000 as literal.

The literal number, 12, is not used in Revelation 7, which never uses the term "12 tribes".

Perhaps we should rather look at the number 144,000 as metaphorical, just as we do the Israelites they refer to.