Isn't the Book of Revelation just a fable and not literal?

[polonius]

http://www.usccb.org/bible/revelation/0

Introduction to Revelation " New American Bible Revised Edition

This much, however, is certain: symbolic descriptions are not to be taken as literal descriptions, nor is the symbolism meant to be pictured realistically. One would find it difficult and repulsive to visualize a lamb with seven horns and seven eyes; yet Jesus Christ is described in precisely such words (Rev 5:6). The author used these images to suggest Christs universal (seven) power (horns) and knowledge (eyes). A significant feature of apocalyptic writing is the use of symbolic colors, metals, garments (Rev 1:13"16; 3:18; 4:4; 6:1"8; 17:4; 19:8), and numbers (four signifies the world, six imperfection, seven totality or perfection, twelve Israels tribes or the apostles, one thousand immensity). Finally the vindictive language in the book (Rev 6:9"10; 18:1"19:4) is also to be understood symbolically and not literally. The cries for vengeance on the lips of Christian martyrs that sound so harsh are in fact literary devices the author employed to evoke in the reader and hearer a feeling of horror for apostasy and rebellion that will be severely punished by God.

[showme]

Peace to you!

[Replying to post 34 by onewithhim]

3 Denotes emphasis; also indicates intensity. (Rev.4:8; 8:13; 16:13,19)

6 Signifies imperfection, something not normal, monstrous. (Rev.13:18; see 2 Samuel 21:20)

10 Signifies completeness in a physical way, as to things on earth. (Rev.2:10; 12:3; 13:1; 17:3,12,16)

It follows that 1000 signifies completeness emphasised (10x10x10).

Good observation. And 144,000 shows completeness emphasized (12 X 12).

Yes, but not, however, just 12x12, but rather, 12x12x10x10.

You are exactly right.

Actually, you two are missing a x10 if you want to make 144 000, rather than 14 400. Just sayin'...



But you want to know what else makes up 144 000?

12 000 x 12 tribes of Israel.

Which is LITERALLY how the number 144 000 is arrived at in the Revelation given to John.


Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.




No need to guess at meanings or to break it down in some other way. The number 144 000 literally consists of 12 000 from each of these 12 tribes.


12000 x 12 tribes of Israel = 144 000 from 12 tribes of Israel.



**

And if the number is literal (as I understand that it is), then so are the tribes and the number taken from each tribe. There is no reason to mention the tribes individually, otherwise.



Peace to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Yeah, you have it. I knew it was something like that.

I guess where we differ is that I view the tribes as SPIRITUAL Israelites and not literal Israelites. This seems evident from what Jesus, Paul, and Peter had to say about the Christian congregation being replaced by "a nation producing the fruitage" of God's Kingdom (which literal Israel was not doing).

"Jesus said to them [chief priests & older men]:'Did you never read in the Scriptures, "The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes"? This is why I say to you, The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits.'" (Matthew 21:42,43)

Paul said: "Surely you know that those who adhere to the faith are the ones who are sons of Abraham....You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus....Their is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham's seed, heirs with reference to a promise.

Peter wrote to Christians in Asia Minor: "YOU are a 'chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies' of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. For you were once not a people, but are now God's people." (I Peter 2:9,10)

Peter was referring to Exodus 19:5,6 where originally Jehovah had been speaking to the physical nation of Israel. He now applied it to the Christian congregation.


This all shows us that the physical nation of Israel no longer merited Jehovah's approval to maintain the position of His holy nation. That "holy nation" was now Christ's followers.

Peter and Paul were the two shepherds taken to "pasture the flock (Gentiles) doomed to slaughter" (Zechariah 11:4-7). The nations, such as the Gentiles, led by Peter and Paul, were given the "court which is outside the temple"... "for forty-two months" (Revelation 11:2). The "sons of Israel" will return to the "LORD" in the "last days". (Hosea 3:5) Whereas the Gentiles, the "adulteress" bought for the equivalence of 30 shekels of silver, was only to remain for "many days". (Hosea 3;4)

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 81 by showme]

Whatever you say, showme. We will just have to agree to disagree. I can't identify with your strange understandings.

[tam]

Peace to you OWH!

Peace to you!

[Replying to post 34 by onewithhim]

3 Denotes emphasis; also indicates intensity. (Rev.4:8; 8:13; 16:13,19)

6 Signifies imperfection, something not normal, monstrous. (Rev.13:18; see 2 Samuel 21:20)

10 Signifies completeness in a physical way, as to things on earth. (Rev.2:10; 12:3; 13:1; 17:3,12,16)

It follows that 1000 signifies completeness emphasised (10x10x10).

Good observation. And 144,000 shows completeness emphasized (12 X 12).

Yes, but not, however, just 12x12, but rather, 12x12x10x10.

You are exactly right.

Actually, you two are missing a x10 if you want to make 144 000, rather than 14 400. Just sayin'...



But you want to know what else makes up 144 000?

12 000 x 12 tribes of Israel.

Which is LITERALLY how the number 144 000 is arrived at in the Revelation given to John.


Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.




No need to guess at meanings or to break it down in some other way. The number 144 000 literally consists of 12 000 from each of these 12 tribes.


12000 x 12 tribes of Israel = 144 000 from 12 tribes of Israel.



**

And if the number is literal (as I understand that it is), then so are the tribes and the number taken from each tribe. There is no reason to mention the tribes individually, otherwise.



Peace to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Yeah, you have it. I knew it was something like that.

I guess where we differ is that I view the tribes as SPIRITUAL Israelites and not literal Israelites. This seems evident from what Jesus, Paul, and Peter had to say about the Christian congregation being replaced by "a nation producing the fruitage" of God's Kingdom (which literal Israel was not doing).

I understand what you are saying, and I agree with the verses that you have quoted. The difference in understanding is that I have learned from my Lord that the 144 000 are literal Israel (as you correctly understood as my understanding). But these ones would also be spiritual Israel. Making them BOTH - literal and spiritual Israel.

I'm not sure if I have ever made that clear before now.


After all, we know that the literal descendants of Israel are certainly not excluded... they were the first to come to Christ after all; and the apostles were all Jewish. None of them even understood at first that the Gentiles were going to be included. So that means most at the start were all (literal) Israel ... as well as 'spiritual' Israel. Even though I believe that my Lord used the word 'true' (rather than spiritual) to describe Nathaniel.


Here is a true Israelite, in whom there is no deceit. John 1:47


In fact, having no deceit is exactly how the 144 000 are also described in Revelation (14:4,5):


These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.




144 000 places (12 000 each from those 12 tribes listed in Revelation), reserved specifically for such ones.

"Jesus said to them [chief priests & older men]:'Did you never read in the Scriptures, "The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes"? This is why I say to you, The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits.'" (Matthew 21:42,43)

Yes. Taken from the nation of Israel and given to a nation that will produce fruit - but not meaning that individual descendants of Israel are excluded. I think you understand that already, I am just reiterating.


That would be about the same point for the rest of the verses you quoted.



Peace again to you owh, and to your household!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[ttruscott]

Lots of room for other interpretations between "not literal" and "just a fable."

[onewithhim]

tam, of course the individual persons of Israel would not be excluded from the spiritual nation of Israel. The nation as a whole was rejected as God's spiritual nation because of their rejection of the Messiah. The Scripture at I Peter 2:9,10 explains it all. And all the verses in Galatians, for example, by Paul, that I quoted.

[Checkpoint]

Peace to you OWH!

Peace to you!

[Replying to post 34 by onewithhim]

3 Denotes emphasis; also indicates intensity. (Rev.4:8; 8:13; 16:13,19)

6 Signifies imperfection, something not normal, monstrous. (Rev.13:18; see 2 Samuel 21:20)

10 Signifies completeness in a physical way, as to things on earth. (Rev.2:10; 12:3; 13:1; 17:3,12,16)

It follows that 1000 signifies completeness emphasised (10x10x10).

Good observation. And 144,000 shows completeness emphasized (12 X 12).

Yes, but not, however, just 12x12, but rather, 12x12x10x10.

You are exactly right.

Actually, you two are missing a x10 if you want to make 144 000, rather than 14 400. Just sayin'...



But you want to know what else makes up 144 000?

12 000 x 12 tribes of Israel.

Which is LITERALLY how the number 144 000 is arrived at in the Revelation given to John.


Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.




No need to guess at meanings or to break it down in some other way. The number 144 000 literally consists of 12 000 from each of these 12 tribes.


12000 x 12 tribes of Israel = 144 000 from 12 tribes of Israel.



**

And if the number is literal (as I understand that it is), then so are the tribes and the number taken from each tribe. There is no reason to mention the tribes individually, otherwise.



Peace to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Yeah, you have it. I knew it was something like that.

I guess where we differ is that I view the tribes as SPIRITUAL Israelites and not literal Israelites. This seems evident from what Jesus, Paul, and Peter had to say about the Christian congregation being replaced by "a nation producing the fruitage" of God's Kingdom (which literal Israel was not doing).

I understand what you are saying, and I agree with the verses that you have quoted. The difference in understanding is that I have learned from my Lord that the 144 000 are literal Israel (as you correctly understood as my understanding). But these ones would also be spiritual Israel. Making them BOTH - literal and spiritual Israel.

I'm not sure if I have ever made that clear before now.


After all, we know that the literal descendants of Israel are certainly not excluded... they were the first to come to Christ after all; and the apostles were all Jewish. None of them even understood at first that the Gentiles were going to be included. So that means most at the start were all (literal) Israel ... as well as 'spiritual' Israel. Even though I believe that my Lord used the word 'true' (rather than spiritual) to describe Nathaniel.


Here is a true Israelite, in whom there is no deceit. John 1:47


In fact, having no deceit is exactly how the 144 000 are also described in Revelation (14:4,5):


These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.




144 000 places (12 000 each from those 12 tribes listed in Revelation), reserved specifically for such ones.

"Jesus said to them [chief priests & older men]:'Did you never read in the Scriptures, "The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes"? This is why I say to you, The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits.'" (Matthew 21:42,43)

Yes. Taken from the nation of Israel and given to a nation that will produce fruit - but not meaning that individual descendants of Israel are excluded. I think you understand that already, I am just reiterating.


That would be about the same point for the rest of the verses you quoted.



Peace again to you owh, and to your household!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

To be or not to be, this way or that., literal or spiritual.

One or the other, not both literal and metaphorical.

Close examination of this passage and its context has led me to draw a conclusion that differs from both yours and JWs.

It is that the numbers, 12,000 and 144,000, and the tribes of Israel, are the first part of a vision being conveyed, in this part, in metaphorical language.

[tam]

[Replying to post 86 by Checkpoint]

Peace to you Checkpoint!


Could you elaborate on that?


For example, what vision you believe this is the first part OF, and what might be the second (or more) parts?


thank you!

Peace again!

[onewithhim]

Peace to you OWH!

Peace to you!

[Replying to post 34 by onewithhim]

3 Denotes emphasis; also indicates intensity. (Rev.4:8; 8:13; 16:13,19)

6 Signifies imperfection, something not normal, monstrous. (Rev.13:18; see 2 Samuel 21:20)

10 Signifies completeness in a physical way, as to things on earth. (Rev.2:10; 12:3; 13:1; 17:3,12,16)

It follows that 1000 signifies completeness emphasised (10x10x10).

Good observation. And 144,000 shows completeness emphasized (12 X 12).

Yes, but not, however, just 12x12, but rather, 12x12x10x10.

You are exactly right.

Actually, you two are missing a x10 if you want to make 144 000, rather than 14 400. Just sayin'...



But you want to know what else makes up 144 000?

12 000 x 12 tribes of Israel.

Which is LITERALLY how the number 144 000 is arrived at in the Revelation given to John.


Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.




No need to guess at meanings or to break it down in some other way. The number 144 000 literally consists of 12 000 from each of these 12 tribes.


12000 x 12 tribes of Israel = 144 000 from 12 tribes of Israel.



**

And if the number is literal (as I understand that it is), then so are the tribes and the number taken from each tribe. There is no reason to mention the tribes individually, otherwise.



Peace to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Yeah, you have it. I knew it was something like that.

I guess where we differ is that I view the tribes as SPIRITUAL Israelites and not literal Israelites. This seems evident from what Jesus, Paul, and Peter had to say about the Christian congregation being replaced by "a nation producing the fruitage" of God's Kingdom (which literal Israel was not doing).

I understand what you are saying, and I agree with the verses that you have quoted. The difference in understanding is that I have learned from my Lord that the 144 000 are literal Israel (as you correctly understood as my understanding). But these ones would also be spiritual Israel. Making them BOTH - literal and spiritual Israel.

I'm not sure if I have ever made that clear before now.


After all, we know that the literal descendants of Israel are certainly not excluded... they were the first to come to Christ after all; and the apostles were all Jewish. None of them even understood at first that the Gentiles were going to be included. So that means most at the start were all (literal) Israel ... as well as 'spiritual' Israel. Even though I believe that my Lord used the word 'true' (rather than spiritual) to describe Nathaniel.


Here is a true Israelite, in whom there is no deceit. John 1:47


In fact, having no deceit is exactly how the 144 000 are also described in Revelation (14:4,5):


These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.




144 000 places (12 000 each from those 12 tribes listed in Revelation), reserved specifically for such ones.

"Jesus said to them [chief priests & older men]:'Did you never read in the Scriptures, "The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes"? This is why I say to you, The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits.'" (Matthew 21:42,43)

Yes. Taken from the nation of Israel and given to a nation that will produce fruit - but not meaning that individual descendants of Israel are excluded. I think you understand that already, I am just reiterating.


That would be about the same point for the rest of the verses you quoted.



Peace again to you owh, and to your household!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

To be or not to be, this way or that., literal or spiritual.

One or the other, not both literal and metaphorical.

Close examination of this passage and its context has led me to draw a conclusion that differs from both yours and JWs.

It is that the numbers, 12,000 and 144,000, and the tribes of Israel, are the first part of a vision being conveyed, in this part, in metaphorical language.

I had a response all typed out and then my computer turned off! I'll try again.

I agree with your assessment of the tribes of Israel in Revelation (ch.7 & 14) being metaphorical, because it stands to reason that the reference would be to spiritual Israel, seeing that we know what Jesus, James, Paul and Peter said about the failure of natural Israel to take advantage of their privilege to continue to be God's special people---by rejecting His Son.

Matthew 21:43; 23:37,38
Acts 15:14
Romans 2:28,29
Galatians 3:26-29; 6:14-16
I Peter 2:9,10


However, the number 12 can logically be thought of as literal, as we see when we consider the 12 tribes of Israel, the 12 Apostles, and 12 gates around the temple (see Rev.21:12-14).

I think there can be both literal and metaphorical passages in the Bible, as it is easy to see for example in Matthew's Gospel.....Jesus tells allegorical/metaphorical stories or parables and he also speaks some pretty literal things, e.g., about the hypocrisy of the religious leaders.

[marco]

I think there can be both literal and metaphorical passages in the Bible, as it is easy to see for example in Matthew's Gospel.....Jesus tells allegorical/metaphorical stories or parables and he also speaks some pretty literal things, e.g., about the hypocrisy of the religious leaders.

The advantage of entertaining this view is that one can choose literal or metaphoric according to one's particular bias. When we do this we are no longer following Scripture, but following our own inclinations, since one interpretation often denies another.

Revelation gives unrivalled opportunities for advancing our special views.

[onewithhim]

I think there can be both literal and metaphorical passages in the Bible, as it is easy to see for example in Matthew's Gospel.....Jesus tells allegorical/metaphorical stories or parables and he also speaks some pretty literal things, e.g., about the hypocrisy of the religious leaders.

The advantage of entertaining this view is that one can choose literal or metaphoric according to one's particular bias. When we do this we are no longer following Scripture, but following our own inclinations, since one interpretation often denies another.

Revelation gives unrivalled opportunities for advancing our special views.

True. Just as Paul said 2,000 years ago: "After my departure savage wolves will come among you, and they will not spare the flock. From your own group men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them." (Acts 20:29,30, NAB)

Men have been twisting scriptures to advance their special views for a long time. Anyway, I have to ask: Are you saying that we have to look at the Scriptures as all literal OR all metaphorical?