This Generation Will Not Pass Away:

[Overcomer]

Jesus talks about the destruction of the temple and signs of the end times in Matt. 24:1-35:

1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 Do you see all these things? he asked. Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. Tell us, they said, when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?

4 Jesus answered: Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, I am the Messiah, and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15 So when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation,[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel"let the reader understand" 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now"and never to be equaled again.

22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, Look, here is the Messiah! or, There he is! do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 So if anyone tells you, There he is, out in the wilderness, do not go out; or, Here he is, in the inner rooms, do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 Immediately after the distress of those days


the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

30 Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32 Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Verse 34 has been the subject of many a debate. My questions are as follows:

What did Jesus mean when he said "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened?" Who is "this generation"?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 92 by polonius.advice

Checkpoint posted:

Many words, in most languages, have different meanings, which are determined by the way they are used.

You began your reply with

Didn't Jesus faill to return when promised?

The remainder of your post gave your own answer to your question.

In that way you ignored not only my post but, more importantly, the topic of this thread, as presented in its opening post, which is:

Verse 34 has been the subject of many a debate. My questions are as follows:

What did Jesus mean when he said "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened?" Who is "this generation"?[/quote]

RESPONSE: Jesus' present generation, that is, those standing there with him.


RESPONSE: Actually, if you reread my reply above, you will see I presented the scriptural evidence rather than trying to avoid it.

It is always a curious thing to see how those who claim the inerrancy of scripture try to avoid admitting some of the obvious errors and contradiction scripture contains.

As in this case.

I have no idea what you are trying to say in this post.

It seems to jumble comments you and I have made, so what was your point this time?

[polonius]

[Replying to post 92 by polonius.advice

Checkpoint posted:

Many words, in most languages, have different meanings, which are determined by the way they are used.

You began your reply with

Didn't Jesus faill to return when promised?

The remainder of your post gave your own answer to your question.

In that way you ignored not only my post but, more importantly, the topic of this thread, as presented in its opening post, which is:

Verse 34 has been the subject of many a debate. My questions are as follows:

What did Jesus mean when he said "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened?" Who is "this generation"?[/quote]

RESPONSE: Jesus' present generation, that is, those standing there with him.

Actually, if you reread my reply above, you will see I presented the scriptural evidence rather than trying to avoid it.

It is always a curious thing to see how those who claim the inerrancy of scripture try to avoid admitting some of the obvious errors and contradiction scripture contains.

As in this case.

I have no idea what you are trying to say in this post.

It seems to jumble comments you and I have made, so what was your point this time?

RESPONSE: Actually, if you go by the plain meaning of words it's very simple. Both Matthew and Luke report that Jesus said the second coming would be within the lifetime of "some standing here."

English Standard Version Matt 16:28
Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

English Standard Version Luke 9:27
But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.

Mark 14:60-62 English Standard Version (ESV)
60 And the high priest stood up in the midst and asked Jesus, Have you no answer to make? What is it that these men testify against you?[a]61 But he remained silent and made no answer. Again the high priest asked him, Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62 And Jesus said, I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.


Of course, to fundamentalists these and similar passages have to be explained away .

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 92 by polonius.advice

Checkpoint posted:

Many words, in most languages, have different meanings, which are determined by the way they are used.

You began your reply with

Didn't Jesus faill to return when promised?

The remainder of your post gave your own answer to your question.

In that way you ignored not only my post but, more importantly, the topic of this thread, as presented in its opening post, which is:

Verse 34 has been the subject of many a debate. My questions are as follows:

What did Jesus mean when he said "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened?" Who is "this generation"?[/quote]

RESPONSE: Jesus' present generation, that is, those standing there with him.

Actually, if you reread my reply above, you will see I presented the scriptural evidence rather than trying to avoid it.

It is always a curious thing to see how those who claim the inerrancy of scripture try to avoid admitting some of the obvious errors and contradiction scripture contains.

As in this case.

I have no idea what you are trying to say in this post.

It seems to jumble comments you and I have made, so what was your point this time?

RESPONSE: Actually, if you go by the plain meaning of words it's very simple. Both Matthew and Luke report that Jesus said the second coming would be within the lifetime of "some standing here."

English Standard Version Matt 16:28
Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

English Standard Version Luke 9:27
But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.

Mark 14:60-62 English Standard Version (ESV)
60 And the high priest stood up in the midst and asked Jesus, Have you no answer to make? What is it that these men testify against you?[a]61 But he remained silent and made no answer. Again the high priest asked him, Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62 And Jesus said, I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.


Of course, to fundamentalists these and similar passages have to be explained away .

Thank you.

For a clear presentation of your points and where you are coming from.

My response will follow soon.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 99 by polonius.advice]

I reminded you[/quote]

importantly, the topic of this thread, as presented in its opening post, is:

Verse 34 has been the subject of many a debate. My questions are as follows:

What did Jesus mean when he said "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened?" Who is "this generation"?

Your responses included

Jesus' present generation, that is, those standing there with him.

Actually, if you reread my reply above, you will see I presented the scriptural evidence rather than trying to avoid it.

Actually, if you go by the plain meaning of words it's very simple.

Those responses indicate that you have:

1)Assumed as a given your definition, and that it is "the plain meaning".

2) Assumed from that assumption your "scriptural evidence" was relevant, valid, and conclusive.

I suggest you reconsider the two questions that were asked in post 1.

[polonius]

Overcomer posted:

What did Jesus mean when he said "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened?" Who is "this generation"?

Checkpoint posted:

Those responses indicate that you have:

1)Assumed as a given your definition, and that it is "the plain meaning".

2) Assumed from that assumption your "scriptural evidence" was relevant, valid, and conclusive.

I suggest you reconsider the two questions that were asked in post 1


Back to top

RESPONSE:

1 Definition of This
a : the one nearer or more immediately under observation or discussion
b : the one more recently referred to

English Standard Version Matt 16:28
Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

English Standard Version Luke 9:27
But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.

Mark 14:60-62 English Standard Version
60 And the high priest stood up in the midst and asked Jesus, Have you no answer to make? What is it that these men testify against you?[a]61 But he remained silent and made no answer. Again the high priest asked him, Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62 And Jesus said, I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.

English Standard Version Matt 10:23
When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

2. your "scriptural evidence" was relevant, valid, and conclusive .
Its not mine.
It is Matthews, Marks and Lukes, evidence. Ultimately attributed to Jesus. That should be relevant, valid, and conclusive, shouldnt it?

3. Reference 1 and 2 above: What did Jesus mean when he said "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened?" Who is "this generation"?

Obviously the one nearer or more immediately under observation or discussion

Asked and answered!

[Elijah John]

Mark 14:60-62 English Standard Version
60 And the high priest stood up in the midst and asked Jesus, Have you no answer to make? What is it that these men testify against you?[a]61 But he remained silent and made no answer. Again the high priest asked him, Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62 And Jesus said, I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.

I think this passage is the clincher. And puts Matthew 16.27-28 into context and perspective. The you in the passage from Mark indicates the high priest. Not some future generation.

And the "seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven" portion cannot be explained by anything other than the 2nd coming.

The high priest in the passage did not see this. Jesus, or Mark, was wrong.

Don't see how apologists explain away this one.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 103 by Elijah John]

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses we don't take the "you" literally to be the High Priest but a figurative you that is representative of opponents of the truth.

The way we see it, just as Jesus used the word "me" to mean himself personally OR to refer to "his brothers" (Compare Matthew 25: 41-46; Rev 1:7), Jesus also used the pronoun YOU to refer to the individual he was addressing, or a group of people present, an entire generation not necessarily present at the time of speaking OR an identifiable group regardless of who was present at the time of speaking. In short, we believe Jesus was speaking prophetically of a future event that Caiaphas would not personally witness.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS







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[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 103 by Elijah John]

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses we don't take the "you" literally to be the High Priest but a figurative you that is representative of opponents of the truth.

The way we see it, just as Jesus used the word "me" to mean himself personally OR to refer to "his brothers" (Compare Matthew 25: 41-46; Rev 1:7), Jesus also used the pronoun YOU to refer to the individual he was addressing, or a group of people present, an entire generation not necessarily present at the time of speaking OR an identifiable group regardless of who was present at the time of speaking. In short, we believe Jesus was speaking prophetically of a future event that Caiaphas would not personally witness.

That is certainly a viable explanation. But would the high priest have understood it that way? After all, Jesus was answering him.

If the "you" was collective, that would certainly include the high priest.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 105 by Elijah John]

I'm not convinced Jesus gave two figs in a basket what the High Priest understood from his words above and beyond that he (Jesus) was emphatically confirming his (Jesus)own Messiahship . That Jesus provided additional information as to what that Messiahship would mean for all who oppose him was, in my opinion, just driving home that he was not afraid to lay claim to divine authority with a prophetic pronouncement for good measure.

Jesus' two fold affirmation achieved two things,

• #1) it effectively sealed his fate as far as the trial was concerned; by admitting he was the Messiah he signed his own death warrant.
  
  #2) it signalled that the story story was far from over.

It would be for his disciples to take courage from the his words and for them to decipher when and and how those words should further be applied.



JW

[Checkpoint]

Overcomer posted:

What did Jesus mean when he said "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened?" Who is "this generation"?

Checkpoint posted:

Those responses indicate that you have:

1)Assumed as a given your definition, and that it is "the plain meaning".

2) Assumed from that assumption your "scriptural evidence" was relevant, valid, and conclusive.

I suggest you reconsider the two questions that were asked in post 1

RESPONSE:

1 Definition of This
a : the one nearer or more immediately under observation or discussion
b : the one more recently referred to

English Standard Version Matt 16:28
Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

English Standard Version Luke 9:27
But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.

Mark 14:60-62 English Standard Version
60 And the high priest stood up in the midst and asked Jesus, Have you no answer to make? What is it that these men testify against you?[a]61 But he remained silent and made no answer. Again the high priest asked him, Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62 And Jesus said, I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.

English Standard Version Matt 10:23
When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Definition of "this" does not answer either of the thread op questions.

They are not about definitions, but about what Jesus meant in using the term "this generation", and who he was referring to.

The words "this generation" are not in the scriptures you quoted as evidence.

That is because, as used by Jesus, the meaning of those words had no place in what those scriptures convey.