Second Coming in the Sky?

[liamconnor]

Certain biblical authors talk of Christ returning from the sky: Acts and Paul.

Paul tells Christians that they will be caught up to meet him.


There is an obvious imaginative problem here: even if a figure should appear in the sky, that portion of sky will be visible from only so many miles. The number of people who could fly up to surround such a flying figure can only be so many; twenty, thirty?

At any rate, even during Paul's time people in Ephesus could not possibly see clouds in Thessalonia.


Did Paul believe that Jesus would literally return on clouds and therefore in one particular place in space? Or was Paul less interested in such literal details as he was in theological and apocalyptic precedents? Namely, Daniel's apocalypse, where

"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. (Dan 7:13 NAS)

Daniel clearly uses symbolism throughout much of the book.

Do the early Christians use symbolism also when writing of Jesus' return?

[onewithhim]

Certain biblical authors talk of Christ returning from the sky: Acts and Paul.

Paul tells Christians that they will be caught up to meet him.


There is an obvious imaginative problem here: even if a figure should appear in the sky, that portion of sky will be visible from only so many miles. The number of people who could fly up to surround such a flying figure can only be so many; twenty, thirty?

At any rate, even during Paul's time people in Ephesus could not possibly see clouds in Thessalonia.


Did Paul believe that Jesus would literally return on clouds and therefore in one particular place in space? Or was Paul less interested in such literal details as he was in theological and apocalyptic precedents? Namely, Daniel's apocalypse, where

"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. (Dan 7:13 NAS)

Daniel clearly uses symbolism throughout much of the book.

Do the early Christians use symbolism also when writing of Jesus' return?

Well true, there seems to be a problem from a globe-earth perspective, but not so impossible from the actual Flat Earth perspective, with a little help from the Lord: "and their eyes shall be opened". After all, this will be That Day for those who been earnestly waiting for it, right?

Did you actually read my post #7?

[Trump]

Certain biblical authors talk of Christ returning from the sky: Acts and Paul.

Paul tells Christians that they will be caught up to meet him.


There is an obvious imaginative problem here: even if a figure should appear in the sky, that portion of sky will be visible from only so many miles. The number of people who could fly up to surround such a flying figure can only be so many; twenty, thirty?

At any rate, even during Paul's time people in Ephesus could not possibly see clouds in Thessalonia.


Did Paul believe that Jesus would literally return on clouds and therefore in one particular place in space? Or was Paul less interested in such literal details as he was in theological and apocalyptic precedents? Namely, Daniel's apocalypse, where

"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. (Dan 7:13 NAS)

Daniel clearly uses symbolism throughout much of the book.

Do the early Christians use symbolism also when writing of Jesus' return?

Acts 1:11 tells us that Jesus will "come in the same manner as you have beheld him going into the sky." How was that? He was OBSCURED by the clouds. They couldn't see him any more.

When he returns it will be an event that he negotiates from heaven, therefore invisibly. Nations will "see" him with eyes of understanding. Jesus said that people can look at something but do not really "see" or, understand. "I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do NOT see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." (Matt.13:13, NASB) When he returns people will absolutely "see" that he has come to put an end to all wickedness. They will all understand, though they don't literally see him with their eyes.

Jesus' co-rulers will not be visible to anyone from the ground. When they are called to meet him in the air, they will be invisible, in spirit bodies, as Paul explained in I Corinthians 15: 40,42-53. There is no problem for Jesus to welcome any person from any part of the world.

.

The spirit is not corruptible, or perishable so according to your understanding, what would your quoted verses mean? especially verse 53?

1Corrinthians 15: 52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: Death has been swallowed up in victory.

We don't HAVE a spirit being inside us that leaves us at death and goes somewhere else, to consciously keep living. "The dead are conscious of nothing." (Ecclesiastes 9:5) The bodies Paul talks about are physical bodies and spirit bodies---non-physical. Paul was explaining that when those early Christians died and then were resurrected they would CHANGE and no longer have their physical bodies, which are corruptible, but they would have spirit bodies that are imperishable. As such they will be able to live in heaven, where flesh cannot go. (I Corinth.15:50)

Thank you so much for your responses onewithhim.

Yes, I believe we're talking about the same thing? I understand that when we change, we'll have new bodies, .. spiritual ones that do not experience corruption. I am focusing on the word bodies, because we also see there are Spirits that don't have bodies yet are individual beings, like the Holy Spirit who can come upon many different people at once.

How do you see demons as? They seem to be spirits that take on different forms, and can even go and possess human bodies?

Also want to ask you about Ecclesiastes, chapter you quoted 9, starts out like this:
For I considered all this in my heart, so that I could declare it all

I mean Solomon isn't talking as a Prophet here, and we know how he considered some pagan idols in his heart too, right? So his view on verse five may be from this worldly physical perspective, where we never see the dead come back to life. Remember he hasn't seen Jesus raise the dead yet, or hear Jesus tell the story about the rich man and Lazarus.

I wonder if he would have written verse 5 as he did, if he had?

[Trump]

Certain biblical authors talk of Christ returning from the sky: Acts and Paul.

Paul tells Christians that they will be caught up to meet him.


There is an obvious imaginative problem here: even if a figure should appear in the sky, that portion of sky will be visible from only so many miles. The number of people who could fly up to surround such a flying figure can only be so many; twenty, thirty?

At any rate, even during Paul's time people in Ephesus could not possibly see clouds in Thessalonia.


Did Paul believe that Jesus would literally return on clouds and therefore in one particular place in space? Or was Paul less interested in such literal details as he was in theological and apocalyptic precedents? Namely, Daniel's apocalypse, where

"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. (Dan 7:13 NAS)

Daniel clearly uses symbolism throughout much of the book.

Do the early Christians use symbolism also when writing of Jesus' return?

Well true, there seems to be a problem from a globe-earth perspective, but not so impossible from the actual Flat Earth perspective, with a little help from the Lord: "and their eyes shall be opened". After all, this will be That Day for those who been earnestly waiting for it, right?

Did you actually read my post #7?

I just did:

Acts 1:11 tells us that Jesus will "come in the same manner as you have beheld him going into the sky." How was that? He was OBSCURED by the clouds. They couldn't see him any more.

When he returns it will be an event that he negotiates from heaven, therefore invisibly. Nations will "see" him with eyes of understanding. Jesus said that people can look at something but do not really "see" or, understand. "I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do NOT see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." (Matt.13:13, NASB) When he returns people will absolutely "see" that he has come to put an end to all wickedness. They will all understand, though they don't literally see him with their eyes.

Jesus' co-rulers will not be visible to anyone from the ground. When they are called to meet him in the air, they will be invisible, in spirit bodies, as Paul explained in I Corinthians 15: 40,42-53. There is no problem for Jesus to welcome any person from any part of the world.

So what about Revelation 1:7 (KJV)
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. ..?

[JehovahsWitness]

So what about Revelation 1:7 (KJV)
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. ..?

I don't believe the words in Revelation are to be taken literally, every eye will not literally see Jesus any more than Jesus is literally a baby sheep as revelation says he is.

JW

[2timothy316]

So what about Revelation 1:7 (KJV)
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. ..?

I don't believe the words in Revelation are to be taken literally, every eye will not literally see Jesus any more than Jesus is literally a baby sheep as revelation says he is.

JW

Clouds many times symbolizes covering, something obscured or out of sight in the Bible. So Jesus is not coming on a cloud. Yet he is coming, but unseen. However every eye shall see the effects of his presence. Just like if I said, 'Every eye has seen the wind'. The wind doesn't just blow in one part of the world. No one has actually seen the wind but everyone has seen the effects of the wind on the world around them. Everyone knows what the wind does. The coming of Jesus will be the same. We will not be able to see him but all mankind will know it's him just as when we see a tree thrashing around we know it's the wind. When Armageddon comes, the whole world will know who is here and who sent him, Jehovah. An uncountable number will welcome him and raise their heads in deliverance. Those that want to keep this world with it's wicked ways and actually try to stop Jesus will parish.

[Trump]

The spirit is not corruptible, or perishable so according to your understanding, what would your quoted verses mean? especially verse 53?

1Corrinthians 15: 52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: Death has been swallowed up in victory.

We don't HAVE a spirit being inside us that leaves us at death and goes somewhere else, to consciously keep living. "The dead are conscious of nothing." (Ecclesiastes 9:5) The bodies Paul talks about are physical bodies and spirit bodies---non-physical. Paul was explaining that when those early Christians died and then were resurrected they would CHANGE and no longer have their physical bodies, which are corruptible, but they would have spirit bodies that are imperishable. As such they will be able to live in heaven, where flesh cannot go. (I Corinth.15:50)

Thank you again onewithhim

Our physical body, this flesh is made up of dust (genesis 2:7) which contain all kinds of metals. Are you saying we are no different than a robot, other then in complexity?

Why would God resurrect the body if he will not use any of it for as you say no flesh can enter Heaven, and since he is turning us into spirit?

What I'm asking is why turn the 'body/flesh' into spirit, .. wouldn't just making a spirit make more sense? Is there anything that God will salvage from this body that he will implement into the spirit-body?

[Trump]

So what about Revelation 1:7 (KJV)
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. ..?

I don't believe the words in Revelation are to be taken literally, every eye will not literally see Jesus any more than Jesus is literally a baby sheep as revelation says he is.

JW

Thank you JehowahsWitness, I agree, especially Revelation is a tough one.

like Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

God is Spirit, so I doubt he breathes air, but we can use Scripture to decipher the meaning to this, no?

Just as you said; Jesus being a baby sheep, or us being sheep, there are many places in the Bible that explain how we should understand that, like Mathew 10:16 and Romans 8:36

So how do you understand "every eye shall see him" in Revelation 1:7 (KJV)
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. ?

[JehovahsWitness]

So how do you understand "every eye shall see him" in Revelation 1:7 (KJV)
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. ?

I don't believe those that "pierced him (Jesus) is to be taken literally because the people that stabbed Jesus, notably the Roman soldiers will have been long dead by the time of Christ's return. I think it means those that oppose his "brothers" (see Mat 25:40)


SEEING JESUS

I understand it to mean "see" with ones "eye of understanding". In a similar way we say "I see" when someone has explained a point what we mean is not literally that we see something literally with our eyes (we usually see the same person before and afte the point has been explained) what we mean is "I understand" "I have grasped the point". For the faithful they perceive his enthonement as King with their eyes of faith.

For the wicked, when Jesus finally arrives to judge at the trubulation, those that have opposed Jesus' people will see as in understand, the gravity of their situation and will "wail" or express their grief at their imminent end (compare Matthew 13:14)


Further reading
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989263#h=16



RELATED POSTS


Where does Jesus say anything about an "invisible kingship"?
viewtopic.php?p=1072190#p1072190


GLOSSARY OF TERMS [END TIMES]

[onewithhim]

Certain biblical authors talk of Christ returning from the sky: Acts and Paul.

Paul tells Christians that they will be caught up to meet him.


There is an obvious imaginative problem here: even if a figure should appear in the sky, that portion of sky will be visible from only so many miles. The number of people who could fly up to surround such a flying figure can only be so many; twenty, thirty?

At any rate, even during Paul's time people in Ephesus could not possibly see clouds in Thessalonia.


Did Paul believe that Jesus would literally return on clouds and therefore in one particular place in space? Or was Paul less interested in such literal details as he was in theological and apocalyptic precedents? Namely, Daniel's apocalypse, where

"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. (Dan 7:13 NAS)

Daniel clearly uses symbolism throughout much of the book.

Do the early Christians use symbolism also when writing of Jesus' return?

Acts 1:11 tells us that Jesus will "come in the same manner as you have beheld him going into the sky." How was that? He was OBSCURED by the clouds. They couldn't see him any more.

When he returns it will be an event that he negotiates from heaven, therefore invisibly. Nations will "see" him with eyes of understanding. Jesus said that people can look at something but do not really "see" or, understand. "I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do NOT see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." (Matt.13:13, NASB) When he returns people will absolutely "see" that he has come to put an end to all wickedness. They will all understand, though they don't literally see him with their eyes.

Jesus' co-rulers will not be visible to anyone from the ground. When they are called to meet him in the air, they will be invisible, in spirit bodies, as Paul explained in I Corinthians 15: 40,42-53. There is no problem for Jesus to welcome any person from any part of the world.

.

The spirit is not corruptible, or perishable so according to your understanding, what would your quoted verses mean? especially verse 53?

1Corrinthians 15: 52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: Death has been swallowed up in victory.

We don't HAVE a spirit being inside us that leaves us at death and goes somewhere else, to consciously keep living. "The dead are conscious of nothing." (Ecclesiastes 9:5) The bodies Paul talks about are physical bodies and spirit bodies---non-physical. Paul was explaining that when those early Christians died and then were resurrected they would CHANGE and no longer have their physical bodies, which are corruptible, but they would have spirit bodies that are imperishable. As such they will be able to live in heaven, where flesh cannot go. (I Corinth.15:50)

Thank you so much for your responses onewithhim.

Yes, I believe we're talking about the same thing? I understand that when we change, we'll have new bodies, .. spiritual ones that do not experience corruption. I am focusing on the word bodies, because we also see there are Spirits that don't have bodies yet are individual beings, like the Holy Spirit who can come upon many different people at once.

How do you see demons as? They seem to be spirits that take on different forms, and can even go and possess human bodies?

Also want to ask you about Ecclesiastes, chapter you quoted 9, starts out like this:
For I considered all this in my heart, so that I could declare it all

I mean Solomon isn't talking as a Prophet here, and we know how he considered some pagan idols in his heart too, right? So his view on verse five may be from this worldly physical perspective, where we never see the dead come back to life. Remember he hasn't seen Jesus raise the dead yet, or hear Jesus tell the story about the rich man and Lazarus.

I wonder if he would have written verse 5 as he did, if he had?

I see demons as spirit persons, created as good angels but who decided to rebel against God. They can appear to humans, taking the form of anything or any one. I believe they do possess some individuals.

I think it is a cop-out to say that the book of Ecclesiastes was written when Solomon was apostasizing from true worship. I find that most people say that who don't want to accept what Solomon wrote. Why should we discard the book of Ecclesiastes when God obviously has seen fit to include it in the Bible canon? He went to pagan worship later on, due to the influence of his pagan wives, but there is no solid information on the idea that when he wrote Ecclesiastes he was an apostate.

What he wrote harmonizes with everything else the Bible says if you forget all the brainwashing that the churches have done on people with their twisted doctrines of a soul or spirit leaving the body at death, fully conscious, to live on (called the doctrine of the Immortality of the Soul), and the Trinity, and literal Hell-fire. If a person can let those things go and do research to see what the original scriptures meant, in the Hebrew and Greek languages, with the help of an Interlinear Bible, that person would see that there is nothing that leaves the body at death except the force from God that kept that person alive. Like the electricity in an electric cord, when the switch is turned off it "returns" to the power Source and the lamp goes dark. The person's future prospects depend totally on God, to return them to life at some future time.

It was Satan who said, "You certainly will not die." (Gen.3:4) It is his doctrine that there is immediate life after death.

[onewithhim]

Certain biblical authors talk of Christ returning from the sky: Acts and Paul.

Paul tells Christians that they will be caught up to meet him.


There is an obvious imaginative problem here: even if a figure should appear in the sky, that portion of sky will be visible from only so many miles. The number of people who could fly up to surround such a flying figure can only be so many; twenty, thirty?

At any rate, even during Paul's time people in Ephesus could not possibly see clouds in Thessalonia.


Did Paul believe that Jesus would literally return on clouds and therefore in one particular place in space? Or was Paul less interested in such literal details as he was in theological and apocalyptic precedents? Namely, Daniel's apocalypse, where

"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. (Dan 7:13 NAS)

Daniel clearly uses symbolism throughout much of the book.

Do the early Christians use symbolism also when writing of Jesus' return?

Well true, there seems to be a problem from a globe-earth perspective, but not so impossible from the actual Flat Earth perspective, with a little help from the Lord: "and their eyes shall be opened". After all, this will be That Day for those who been earnestly waiting for it, right?

Did you actually read my post #7?

I just did:

Acts 1:11 tells us that Jesus will "come in the same manner as you have beheld him going into the sky." How was that? He was OBSCURED by the clouds. They couldn't see him any more.

When he returns it will be an event that he negotiates from heaven, therefore invisibly. Nations will "see" him with eyes of understanding. Jesus said that people can look at something but do not really "see" or, understand. "I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do NOT see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." (Matt.13:13, NASB) When he returns people will absolutely "see" that he has come to put an end to all wickedness. They will all understand, though they don't literally see him with their eyes.

Jesus' co-rulers will not be visible to anyone from the ground. When they are called to meet him in the air, they will be invisible, in spirit bodies, as Paul explained in I Corinthians 15: 40,42-53. There is no problem for Jesus to welcome any person from any part of the world.

So what about Revelation 1:7 (KJV)
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. ..?

I just wrote about this on one of these threads. I can't remember where. I quoted some scriptures that show that people can "see" with understanding. If someone explains something to me, I might say, "Oh, I see." That is the meaning of Revelation 1:7. Everyone on earth will understand what is happening, who it is that has "come" and that he comes in Jehovah's name.

"I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled which says, 'You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; you will keep on seeing, but will not perceive. For the heart of this people has become dull, with their ears they scarcely hear, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they would see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and UNDERSTAND with their heart and return, and I would heal them.'" (Matthew 13:13-15, NASB)

"Seeing" certainly means "understanding," as those verses show.