Do you have the hope of going to heaven

[JehovahsWitness]

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I do not have a hope of going to heaven (when I speak of "heaven" I mean the spiritual abode/realm where God lives).

- Do you personally entertain the hope of going to heaven to spend eternity with God when you die? (if this question is too personal I respect if you do not want to share this information)

- If so, do you believe such a literal spiritual realm exists?

- Do you believe that Jesus is presently in heaven where God exists?



* My question is for people that do believe that a God exists, since I presume that those that do not believe in God do believe he exists anywhere and therefore there is no "heaven" where God is.

[OnceConvinced]

If I can spend 40 years worshipping a tree, thinking I was worshipping the bible god and God never once tries to put me straight that I'm doing so, then why would I ever believe in any god at all?

In 40 years Jehovah's Witnesses never came to your home or tried to speak to you on the street, at work or on the internet?

Why would I ever take a JW as a spokesperson from God? That wouldn't make any sense at all, especially when I saw them as belonging to a cult. That would hardly be considered God trying to put me straight.

I had way more Christians telling me that JW was a cult. In fact no Christian ever told me they weren't. Even those who didn't like to brand other denominations as cults still saw JW as one. If God was trying to tell me anything it was don't trust JWs, as they are part of a cult.

Who do I take more seriously? The people I know and trust who are fervent followers of Jesus Christ or some weirdos who turn up on my doorstep?

The fact is I have rarely seen JWs at my doorstep. I seem to remember some when I was a kid and my parents always dealt with them. I can even remember some turning up on the doorstep every now and then talking to one of my ex's. They had been doing it before I hooked up with her, but none of them were interested in talking to me. None ever said "Hey, there's someone in this house that God wants to get a message to.". Nope never.

It's possible I might have turned away one or two at various points, I can't recall because religious visitors on my doorstep has been rare. In fact I've often seen Mormons on the street and I can remember having them turn up a few times. Those guys in their matching suits and ties. Perhaps Jehovah was wanting me to join the Mormon church? If we go by your logic, then that would have to be the case. I've had more Mormons target me than JWs, for sure.

Sorry, but I just can't take seriously your argument JW. The odd JW turning up on my doorstep can't possibly be considered God trying to put me straight. If God was going to put me straight he would have spoken to me himself about it. Instead of blessing me and making me think I was in the right version of Christianity, I would have had that little voice telling me I was in the wrong church. I never had that at all. From what I believed I was in a relationship with Jehovah himself and I was serving him as he wanted me to. He never once told me otherwise.

MATTHEW 28:19–20
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations [...] teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.

Why would we take anyone seriously who turned up on our doorsteps claiming to be speaking for Jehovah? What if they were fake Jehovah's Witnesses?

As a Christian I was always taught that Jehovah's Witness was a cult and from what I am seeing of some of the things you guys are saying, it seems to validate that.

or tried to speak to you on the street,

I've had plenty of Christians talk to me on the street. I don't believe any of them were JWs. None of them once told me I was worshiping the wrong god or that I was in the wrong denomination of Christianity.

at work

Nope, never. In fact I've never come across a work colleague who has claimed to be Jehovah's Witnesses. If there has been, while I was a Christian, and they tried to talk to me about it, I would have had debates with them trying to get them to realise they were part of a cult and not true Christian.

or on the internet?[/i]

Only you guys, but never while I was a Christian.

But there are way more Christians on this site who aren't Jehovah's witnesses. Ones who IMO seem to better represent Jehovah and what the bible tells us about him.

[dio9]

The only heaven I am interested in is the one we could build here and now, if the rascals weren't in charge.

[dio9]

The question for me is do you have hope the kingdom of heaven will ever become a reality on earth. I believe it can but will need a whole lot of cooperation.

It won't take a "lot of co operation" as if it would depend on the actions of humans, it will take "a lot of kingdom" ... Jesus taught his followers to pray "thy will be done on earth..." and God's will is not subject to that of humans. God's purpose is that his "will be done on earth as it is in heaven", so you can take that to the bank!

God's pupose for this our planet earth will be fulfilled there is no "but" in the equation.


JW

Men of good will have have tried. If enough try maybe it will happen. However it may take some shock , like an alien invasion or something to bring the human race together .

Who's responsible for all the fussing and fighting? God?

Did you read my post #98 at all? What I said adds something meaningful, I think, to the discussion.

There also has been a lot of discussion about who is responsible for all the problems of the world. According to the Bible, it's Satan and Adam. (Revelation 12:9; I Timothy 2:14)


.

what about the rascals today ? You want to give them a free ride? You don't think they have a hand in the problems we have today? Sure blame it on Adam.

[onewithhim]

All I can say is that I imagine there are people who are genuinely devoted to a tree, and they fervently pray to it and worship it with all their might. I wonder why their god does not have meaningful fellowship with them. It is my opinion that the tree is a fallacious god. I don't think that my opinion is far from a bull's-eye.

It very much seems as though you are suggesting that your god is a tree.

If I can spend 40 years worshipping a tree, thinking I was worshipping the bible god and God never once tries to put me straight that I'm doing so, then why would I ever believe in any god at all? I'd have to be crazy to.

You could be genuinely following and serving a tree yourself. Or perhaps a pile of rocks?



What I know is that I prayed to the God of the bible very genuinely. Most of my prayers I spoke involved addressing God directly. Sometimes I threw in the name Jesus. However if God is real and intelligent, he knows that I am genuinely addressing him, not anything or anyone else and would surely consider that. If not, then he's not a very caring and loving God, is he? He would have to be some really dim-witted god if he didn't realise I was actually addressing him.

Note the scripture. He searches for every intent of the thought.

1 Chronicles 28:9
As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

So he doesn't just flag you away because you might pray to Jesus instead of him. It would not be an issue for an all-knowing being who knows the intents of our hearts and understands us completely.

My heart was genuinely open to God. I loved God. I genuinely desired to serve him. Is God really as dim-witted and nit-picky as what you seem to be implying? If the JW god is that clueless and pedantic, then I want nothing of him.

1 Samuel 16:7
But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

Psalm 139:1-2
O LORD, Thou hast searched me and known me. Thou dost know when I sit down and when I rise up; Thou dost understand my thought from afar.

If you were addressing Jehovah (the God of the Bible), then I'm sure He heard you. Just maybe He answered you but you didn't accept that answer when it came. Is that possible?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 103 by onewithhim]



[center]

Not quite understanding what the word "evidence" means, and the argument from ignorance[/center]

It is well known, since I was a younger person, that scientists can't figure out why we die.

I don't know if they have figured out why we live, either.
It's weird, but scientists just don't know everything.

Whatarwegonnada?

The organism we call our body is put together in such a way as to replenish itself, restore skin that has been broken, cells that have been disrupted for one reason or other, and why would this cease? There is no scientific reason.

There probably are a lot of scientific reasons.. We might not know all of them.
I think you might be winding up for the argument from ignorance....

Going from something we do not know.. right to your conclusion, without a TRACE of explanation in between. That's just bad reasoning.

_____________________

For the record:

Some people see the word "ignorance" and take it to be an insult, as there are more than one meaning to the word. It's not an insult in this case. We can replace the word "ignorance" here to mean "what we don't know". So, we can easily reword "Argument from ignorance" as "Argument from what we don't know."
______________________

Therefore, "living forever" is what we should be doing.

Oh wow.
No.

Ok, that IS the argument from ignorance.
I keep pointing these logical failures, LABEL them for easy reference, and I really don't think that people much care.

The argument from ignorance is a complete and abject FAILURE.
If you would like, I can explain why what you just wrote is an example of the logical fallacy. In detail. It would be my pleasure to do so.

I really hope that you take me up on this.
It would help your reasoning enormously.

If we are NOT, then there could be a gene or two in our DNA that is compromising our endless life. Science hasn't come up with an answer, so my guess is as good as theirs.

You have a little bit of science correct. To say that something COULD BE is a great place to START a scientific investigation. But saying that something COULD be is no scientific EVIDENCE..

When you say that DNA must be involved in the Adam and Eve story... that their DNA changed as soon as they sinned or something like that.. you are making a scientific HYPOTHESIS.. And that's great. That's how a scientific investigation starts.

But that's NOT where a scientific investigation ENDS.

If we cannot support our hypothesis with any evidence, then we have to SHELVE that investigation until something pops up.

____________

Question:

• 
  
  Since you don't seem to have actual evidence for your hypothesis, are you now willing to shelve it until you do? That's how actual SCIENCE works, you see.
  
  

____________

I didn't intimate that "that's where scientific investigation ENDS." I have been talking about REASONING, not set-stone-evidence. There are things that can't be known, even from a scientific viewpoint. We just REASON and try to come up with logical hypotheses and work from there.

Scientists say that, being that the body has a built-in reconstituting mechanism, why does it give out after awhile? They say that it shouldn't. It should keep on functioning, but it doesn't. After a certain age the body starts to deteriorate. Do you think that maybe they're been looking at the genes to try and figure it out? That's the impression I got. They're ALWAYS looking at genes to figure a plethora of things out.

So, my point was, if Science says these things, why should I NOT consider that genes have a good deal to do with the fact that humans die around 80-100 years old?

And yes, I am willing to shelve it for now.

[onewithhim]

Did you mean to refer to "their" god being a tree?

Nope I meant what I said literally. She is inferring that others worship false gods, but from my point of view she could be worshiping a false god too. Even though she is convinced her god is the right one, it maybe that it's not. It's all very well to accuse others of worshipping false or imaginary gods, but one needs to be careful they aren't calling the kettle black.

I see onewithim's words as suggesting that worship or devotion directed to wooden items as being unacceptable not acceptable. I know that as Jehovah's Witnesses we never bow down in worshipful reverence before any physical item made of wood or any other material, to do so we consider idolatry.

To me she seemed to be insinuating that I was worshipping a false god as a Christian, but no, I was worshipping Jehovah just like you guys claim to be.

The bible most certainly indicates God ignores prayers from certain people. The bible also indicates he finds idolatry abhorrent and does not wish his people to use idols for prayer or worship.

It seems that JWs would have us believe that if we pray to Jesus we are worshipping a false god. However if you understand the trinity and how it’s viewed by believers, this is definitely not the case. A believer in the trinity, even if he prays to Jesus is not praying to a human called Jesus or even the son of God. He is praying to Jehovah. That is his intention.

The scriptures I quoted show that Jehovah examines our motives and our intentions. If it is our intention that we are praying to him, then he will realise that. It matters not if we are calling him Jesus. He knows that we intend to be praying to him.

Now why would Jehovah refuse our prayers when he knows that our intention is to pray to him, not some other god? Why would it ever be a problem for him that we referred to him as Jesus?

If we are asking Jesus to forgive us our sins or to come into our lives, or anything like that, we are actually asking JEHOVAH to forgive our sins and come in to our lives. Jehovah looks at our hearts, not the words we use. It’s our intention that matters.

If one is going to claim that praying to Jesus is wrong and sinful, then they are certainly not looking at the hearts of the ones praying. They are not look at the intentions.

Notice, Jehovah did not say "make them and bow down to them, I'll just read your heart and know you mean ME".

The bible makes it quite clear that worship of idols is a sin, so it’s quite understandable that Jehovah is not going to honor any of those prayers, but Christians don’t do that except in perhaps maybe the Catholic church.

Having said that though, if a Catholic were to bow down in front of a wooden cross or carving of Jesus and pray to that statue, their intention is not to pray to that wooden thing. Their intention is to pray to Jehovah. So would Jehovah condemn them? I doubt that very much, because he is looking at their hearts and their intentions and knows full well they are praying to him, not a hunk of wood.

Not Jehovah's Witnesses bowing in worshipful reverence before rocks or stones is absolutely unacceptable for JWs and we never do it.

You’re missing the point of the cartoon. It’s a dig at those who believe they are worshipping a real god while accusing others of worshiping false gods. It’s likening gods to piles of rocks.

When a Jehovah’s Witness looks down their nose at other Christians, claiming they are not true Christians, I see them as like those two Neanderthals laughing and scoffing at the other Neanderthal who is worshipping exactly the same thing as they are.

It might be a problem because Jehovah is NOT Jesus. To pray to Jesus would be idolatry, just like praying to Mary or St. Jude or a tree. Jesus himself clearly said: "Pray in THIS way: OUR FATHER who is in heaven...." (Matthew 6:9, NASB)

It is NOT anyone's intention to pray to Jehovah if they are praying to a statue or any other idol. Most people will vehemently castigate "Jehovah" and any mention of Him. He is foreign to them, and they want nothing to do with Him. Try mentioning "Jehovah" to your family and friends. Observe their reaction. I think you'll agree that they don't think much of "Jehovah."

I'm just wondering....if you think that God is OK with people using idols in their worship, why did he give people the First and Second Commandments?



(I) "You must not have any other gods against my face."

(II) "You must not make a carved image or a form like anything in the heavens, on the earth, or in the waters under the earth, nor are you to bow down to them or serve them."


(Exodus 20)

[onewithhim]

If I can spend 40 years worshipping a tree, thinking I was worshipping the bible god and God never once tries to put me straight that I'm doing so, then why would I ever believe in any god at all?

In 40 years Jehovah's Witnesses never came to your home or tried to speak to you on the street, at work or on the internet?

Why would I ever take a JW as a spokesperson from God? That wouldn't make any sense at all, especially when I saw them as belonging to a cult. That would hardly be considered God trying to put me straight.

I had way more Christians telling me that JW was a cult. In fact no Christian ever told me they weren't. Even those who didn't like to brand other denominations as cults still saw JW as one. If God was trying to tell me anything it was don't trust JWs, as they are part of a cult.

Who do I take more seriously? The people I know and trust who are fervent followers of Jesus Christ or some weirdos who turn up on my doorstep?

The fact is I have rarely seen JWs at my doorstep. I seem to remember some when I was a kid and my parents always dealt with them. I can even remember some turning up on the doorstep every now and then talking to one of my ex's. They had been doing it before I hooked up with her, but none of them were interested in talking to me. None ever said "Hey, there's someone in this house that God wants to get a message to.". Nope never.

It's possible I might have turned away one or two at various points, I can't recall because religious visitors on my doorstep has been rare. In fact I've often seen Mormons on the street and I can remember having them turn up a few times. Those guys in their matching suits and ties. Perhaps Jehovah was wanting me to join the Mormon church? If we go by your logic, then that would have to be the case. I've had more Mormons target me than JWs, for sure.

Sorry, but I just can't take seriously your argument JW. The odd JW turning up on my doorstep can't possibly be considered God trying to put me straight. If God was going to put me straight he would have spoken to me himself about it. Instead of blessing me and making me think I was in the right version of Christianity, I would have had that little voice telling me I was in the wrong church. I never had that at all. From what I believed I was in a relationship with Jehovah himself and I was serving him as he wanted me to. He never once told me otherwise.

MATTHEW 28:19–20
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations [...] teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.

Why would we take anyone seriously who turned up on our doorsteps claiming to be speaking for Jehovah? What if they were fake Jehovah's Witnesses?

As a Christian I was always taught that Jehovah's Witness was a cult and from what I am seeing of some of the things you guys are saying, it seems to validate that.

or tried to speak to you on the street,

I've had plenty of Christians talk to me on the street. I don't believe any of them were JWs. None of them once told me I was worshiping the wrong god or that I was in the wrong denomination of Christianity.

at work

Nope, never. In fact I've never come across a work colleague who has claimed to be Jehovah's Witnesses. If there has been, while I was a Christian, and they tried to talk to me about it, I would have had debates with them trying to get them to realise they were part of a cult and not true Christian.

or on the internet?[/i]

Only you guys, but never while I was a Christian.

But there are way more Christians on this site who aren't Jehovah's witnesses. Ones who IMO seem to better represent Jehovah and what the bible tells us about him.

Well, as I see it, I think you just answered your own question. You wouldn't even consider listening to one of those cultists! You say, "God would not be trying to talk to me through them! No way!" And you wonder why they never said, "hey there's someone else in this house that we want to talk to"? Why would God direct them to YOU when you have said quite succinctly that you think they're weirdos?

So, the question remains, "why hasn't God answered my prayers?" (1) You were not praying to the God of the Bible (look at Psalm 83:18, KJV), and (2) you were not willing to even think that God might be nudging you toward Jehovah's Witnesses---you say they are "a cult and are weird." There's your answer.

[onewithhim]

The only heaven I am interested in is the one we could build here and now, if the rascals weren't in charge.

Right on. So...you like a PHYSICAL environment, like most of us. What you are interested in will come to be. The rascals that are in charge now will be put out of business. Then we will build a paradise on Earth.

[onewithhim]

The question for me is do you have hope the kingdom of heaven will ever become a reality on earth. I believe it can but will need a whole lot of cooperation.

It won't take a "lot of co operation" as if it would depend on the actions of humans, it will take "a lot of kingdom" ... Jesus taught his followers to pray "thy will be done on earth..." and God's will is not subject to that of humans. God's purpose is that his "will be done on earth as it is in heaven", so you can take that to the bank!

God's pupose for this our planet earth will be fulfilled there is no "but" in the equation.


JW

Men of good will have have tried. If enough try maybe it will happen. However it may take some shock , like an alien invasion or something to bring the human race together .

Who's responsible for all the fussing and fighting? God?

Did you read my post #98 at all? What I said adds something meaningful, I think, to the discussion.

There also has been a lot of discussion about who is responsible for all the problems of the world. According to the Bible, it's Satan and Adam. (Revelation 12:9; I Timothy 2:14)


.

what about the rascals today ? You want to give them a free ride? You don't think they have a hand in the problems we have today? Sure blame it on Adam.

Of course I think the "rascals" have a hand in the problems we have today! Even though Adam is responsible for suffering and death coming into the world, each one of us can align ourselves with God and Christ and do our best to be peaceable and helpful to people.

[OnceConvinced]

If you were addressing Jehovah (the God of the Bible), then I'm sure He heard you. Just maybe He answered you but you didn't accept that answer when it came. Is that possible?

Well I was first 7 years old when I gave my life to God. I can't remember anything about it, but I know I would have been completely genuine. I'm sure Jehovah would have welcomed me with opened arms. Even before that I used to pray genuinely to God every night before I went to bed, as my mother taught me. A small kid that age is going to be nothing but genuine.

As an adult, when I cried out to Jehovah as I was losing my faith, begging him for help, I guess his answer must have been "Go jump in the lake" or something like that. However I never heard anything like that. I put it down now to there being no god to hear my cries.