Do you have the hope of going to heaven

[JehovahsWitness]

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I do not have a hope of going to heaven (when I speak of "heaven" I mean the spiritual abode/realm where God lives).

- Do you personally entertain the hope of going to heaven to spend eternity with God when you die? (if this question is too personal I respect if you do not want to share this information)

- If so, do you believe such a literal spiritual realm exists?

- Do you believe that Jesus is presently in heaven where God exists?



* My question is for people that do believe that a God exists, since I presume that those that do not believe in God do believe he exists anywhere and therefore there is no "heaven" where God is.

[onewithhim]

Yes. I have explained it, also, on other threads. It makes sense, as I said, if we look at it not just as a religious story but as something real that happened because of certain natural laws. DNA is a big part of that, IMHO.

Could you perhaps expand how DNA comes into the picture?

Again I say that to believe in God and what the Bible says about Adam and the human race does not lie totally in the lap of "religion." I look at nature and science and I see how things make sense according to those things. It doesn't make too much sense in a religious format, to believe that all of a man's descendants are to suffer because of what he alone did.

However, when I look at the whole scenario with science in mind, it makes sense.

Adam, a perfect man, was told that he could have everything in the garden with the exception of one tree. If he took fruit off that one tree, he would die. Ungrateful Adam didn't repremand Eve for taking it, and he also ate of it. That meant that his perfectly arranged DNA---with eternal life in view---was now imperfectly arranged, so that Adam's body would not live forever.

Now, then....if Adam was imperfect now, and his DNA was out of whack, how could he produce perfect children? It was genetically impossible. So he passed down old age and death to all of his descendants. As it says in the book of Job: "Who can make the clean out of the unclean? No one!" (Job 14:4, NASB)

An illustration is: How can a pan that is dented refrain from forming a cake that has no dent?

[OnceConvinced]

How can you tell 100% that God can't be true?

I can't. As an atheist I say I do not believe in God. That doesn't mean I can't be wrong about it. I can however be very confident that the bible god isn't true. At least not the way the bible portrays it. But perhaps I am wrong. It's now up to God to prove me wrong. The bible has failed. Humans have failed. What's next if not God himself?

Santa Claus is not a supernatural being.

If the stories about him a true, then he most definitely would have to be a supernatural being. Being able to speed around the world and deliver all those presents, get down chimneys, make his reindeer fly, etc etc. Have you ever looked at the impossible feats Santa would have to perform do be able to do what he does? Those things could only be done via supernatural power.

We cannot access Him through prayer.

There is no convincing evidence that any gods can be accessed through prayer either or that there are any beings at all that are supernatural. That seems all like wishful thinking to me, much like belief in Santa.

I've tried accessing God through prayer. I've prayed regularly all most of my life. It worked as well as writing letters to Santa Claus asking him for things to be put in my Christmas stockings and under the tree.

Actually some kids pray to Santa and get what they want. So perhaps Santa CAN be accessed by prayer?

The point of using the Santa analogy is to show that once you come to the conclusion that something isn't real you can't go back to that same belief. That doesn't mean that you might not come to a different belief about Santa. It is possible I could go from an Atheist to a believer again, but I would never be able to see God as the one I once worshipped.

People make the mistake of thinking proof of God should come from miracles in the skies. That is not a new thing.

I make no presumptions on what God would do if he were real. However God would know exactly what would be needed for me to believe, don't you think? And being a loving and caring God would he not do whatever that thing was to help me to believe? Especially when I was in tears crying out in anguish to him looking for something to strengthen my faith.

You want to talk as if God is real. However to me now, he is as real as Santa Claus was. It may be that there is some magical being called Santa who maybe doesn't operate in the same way he once did. Perhaps this Santa now has humans (like our parents) do his work on his behalf now? Much like God apparently does. Or perhaps Santa was just a man and the stories about him were exaggerated? Maybe he really did exist, but was an ordinary human with ordinary reindeers. The thing is I could not go back to believing in the Santa I believed in as a kid. It just would not be possible. Same when it comes to God. I could no go back to believing the bible version. That is what I think anyway. If I'm wrong, I'm sure God would be quite capable of showing me. However some stranger over the Internet is not God.

Talking to me as if God is real... that he is supernatural and answers prayers is no more convincing that trying to tell me that Santa is real.

Matthew 27:39-40

…39And those who passed by heaped abuse on Him, shaking their heads, 40and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross!�

Sure, this is the theology , doctrine and dogma sub-forum. You can quote scripture as authoritative, but for me it is unconvincing. I have followed the bible, believing it to be God's word. I did so for over 30 years of my life. I no longer see the bible as God's word.

The other mistake you have made is that just because you have been disillusioned with the Bible, then suddenly that makes God fictitious.

I'm afraid that it's you that has made the mistake. My disbelief in God comes as a result of many things, not just the bible proving itself to be false. Many things make your God look fictitious.

Here is my list if you want to see it:

94 reasons why I no longer believe

My journey from Christian to Atheist took several years and wasn't done lightly. Many things were considered. The bible being unreliable is an issue, but part of many reasons I no longer believe.

Even if it could be determined that there really is a god, it would be an entirely different thing again to prove it's the god of the bible.

My stance is that I DO NOT BELIEVE in God. Proof is now required for me to believe God exists now. Misrepresenting my position is in no way going to help me to believe again.

I know too much about how corrupted the OT is.

I hope you are aware of how corrupt the NT is too.

In fact, it's enough to destroy someone's faith.

Many things helped destroy my faith, not just the OT. The NT also helped in a big way. Both Jesus's, Pauls and other NT teachings have helped destroy my faith. Reality has helped destroy my faith in God.

Yet I had the foundation.

As did I. I had a very firm foundation in Jesus.

Once you have made spiritual contact with God, there is no going back.

Oh here we go with the No True Scotsman fallacy again. Be careful where you go here as you will lose all integrity with me if you continue with it. I believe I had a real spiritual connection with God. I believed I had a relationship with god. If I was only kidding myself, then you probably are too.

If I was kidding myself, then it would be a joke for anyone to suggest I should ever try again. If 30 years of genuine and diligent faith was not enough to get a spiritual connection with God, then what is? How can any Christian who is convinced they have a spiritual connection with God be assured they do? Is it really that hard to establish a spiritual connection with God?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 91 by onewithhim]



[center]

Science of DNA supporting Genesis[/center]

Could you perhaps expand how DNA comes into the picture?

Again I say that to believe in God and what the Bible says about Adam and the human race does not lie totally in the lap of "religion."

Ok, so lets take religion out of this for a while.
Now.. what part of what the Bible says about Adam and Eve is true?

I look at nature and science and I see how things make sense according to those things.

I look at nature and science too.
I don't know how that makes what the Bible say true.

It doesn't make too much sense in a religious format, to believe that all of a man's descendants are to suffer because of what he alone did.

A lot of very religious people don't seem to have a problem with that hypothesis.
But we are trying to keep religious considerations out of this for now.

However, when I look at the whole scenario with science in mind, it makes sense.

Yes, you have made that claim before, and you certainly are NOT the only one to do so. Muslim apologists are famous for that. They claim that the Koran is like a science text book, or that in any case, the Koran matches perfectly with modern science.

I think you were also trying to prove to me that intelligent design was scientific as well. As I recall, you left that discussion a bit frustrated with me.

Adam, a perfect man, was told that he could have everything in the garden with the exception of one tree.

Let's grant that as just true for now.
For the sake of your argument.

But remember, we are trying to demonstrate that the Bible story IS true... and this time, not by religious considerations, but scientific ones.

If he took fruit off that one tree, he would die. Ungrateful Adam didn't repremand Eve for taking it, and he also ate of it.

Yeah, I can accept that as a pretty good version of the story.

That meant that his perfectly arranged DNA---with eternal life in view---was now imperfectly arranged, so that Adam's body would not live forever.

Ah.. the science part.

Adam did something immoral and that event caused his DNA to instantly change.
Well, that does sound like a scientific hypothesis.

____________

Question:

• 
  
  What scientific evidence will you use to support the hypothesis?
  
  

____________

[dio9]

The question for me is do you have hope the kingdom of heaven will ever become a reality on earth. I believe it can but will need a whole lot of cooperation. The messiahs of Israel including Jesus believed all we have to do is refuse too be ruled by any other god or man than the one true God of Israel, I suppose if we refuse long enough and are stubborn enough the so called kings of the earth will give and all we will have left is God's rule. We just have to outlast the rascals.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 94 by dio9]


[center]
Hoping song[/center]

The question for me is do you have hope the kingdom of heaven will ever become a reality on earth.

Artists hope for the best tableau
Hope until day's gone, hope is never wrong

Some people think that wishing makes it so
That might be why they've done it oh so very long

[onewithhim]

It is possible I could go from an Atheist to a believer again, but I would never be able to see God as the one I once worshipped.

And that wouldn't be a bad thing. Perhaps the God you once worshiped was not really God. Did you worship the Trinity of Gods? Did you think that praying to Jesus was the thing to do? Both of those things are fallacies.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 91 by onewithhim]



[center]

Science of DNA supporting Genesis[/center]

Could you perhaps expand how DNA comes into the picture?

Again I say that to believe in God and what the Bible says about Adam and the human race does not lie totally in the lap of "religion."

Ok, so lets take religion out of this for a while.
Now.. what part of what the Bible says about Adam and Eve is true?

I look at nature and science and I see how things make sense according to those things.

I look at nature and science too.
I don't know how that makes what the Bible say true.

It doesn't make too much sense in a religious format, to believe that all of a man's descendants are to suffer because of what he alone did.

A lot of very religious people don't seem to have a problem with that hypothesis.
But we are trying to keep religious considerations out of this for now.

However, when I look at the whole scenario with science in mind, it makes sense.

Yes, you have made that claim before, and you certainly are NOT the only one to do so. Muslim apologists are famous for that. They claim that the Koran is like a science text book, or that in any case, the Koran matches perfectly with modern science.

I think you were also trying to prove to me that intelligent design was scientific as well. As I recall, you left that discussion a bit frustrated with me.

Adam, a perfect man, was told that he could have everything in the garden with the exception of one tree.

Let's grant that as just true for now.
For the sake of your argument.

But remember, we are trying to demonstrate that the Bible story IS true... and this time, not by religious considerations, but scientific ones.

If he took fruit off that one tree, he would die. Ungrateful Adam didn't repremand Eve for taking it, and he also ate of it.

Yeah, I can accept that as a pretty good version of the story.

That meant that his perfectly arranged DNA---with eternal life in view---was now imperfectly arranged, so that Adam's body would not live forever.

Ah.. the science part.

Adam did something immoral and that event caused his DNA to instantly change.
Well, that does sound like a scientific hypothesis.

____________

Question:

• 
  
  What scientific evidence will you use to support the hypothesis?
  
  

____________

That, obviously, Adam's inner workings DID change, because he was supposed to live forever but then was sentenced to NOT live forever. That is where God re-programming the DNA has to come in. Do you not believe what Science says about DNA being our genetic blueprint & has everything to do with what our bodies do?

[onewithhim]

The question for me is do you have hope the kingdom of heaven will ever become a reality on earth. I believe it can but will need a whole lot of cooperation. The messiahs of Israel including Jesus believed all we have to do is refuse too be ruled by any other god or man than the one true God of Israel, I suppose if we refuse long enough and are stubborn enough the so called kings of the earth will give and all we will have left is God's rule. We just have to outlast the rascals.

Yes, the Kingdom of heaven will cause events on Earth to conform to God's will. The Earth is, if you will, the "courtyard" of God's seat of government which is in heaven. Just like Washington,D.C., is the seat of the U.S.'s government, and it has as its citizens a vast population outside of the capital.

That governmental arrangement, with its seat in heaven, will cause the earth to become what it was supposed to be like in the beginning---Paradise. It will be real.

You are right, it will need a whole lot of cooperation, and that is why Jesus commissioned his disciples to go out into the whole world and tell people about God's will and His promises. The people that want to cooperate will get to live in peace and prosperity on a paradise Earth.

If the end of wickedness was up to men, wickedness would never end. There would always be some rich honcho that would dictate what would be happening on Earth. The Bible explains that God will take care of the wicked, and then the people can have true peace and security (unlike what the world of mankind can offer).

"The God of heaven will set up a Kingdom which will never be destroyed;...it will crush and put an end to all other kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever." (Daniel 2:44, NASB)

"Evildoers shall be cut off; but those that wait on Jehovah, they shall possess the land. For yet a little while, and the wicked is not; and thou considerest his place, but he is not. But the meek shall possess the land, and shall delight themselves in the abundance of prosperity." (Psalm 37:9-11, Darby)

[JehovahsWitness]

The question for me is do you have hope the kingdom of heaven will ever become a reality on earth. I believe it can but will need a whole lot of cooperation.

It won't take a "lot of co operation" as if it would depend on the actions of humans, it will take "a lot of kingdom" ... Jesus taught his followers to pray "thy will be done on earth..." and God's will is not subject to that of humans. God's purpose is that his "will be done on earth as it is in heaven", so you can take that to the bank!

God's pupose for this our planet earth will be fulfilled there is no "but" in the equation.


JW

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 97 by onewithhim]



[center]
Opinion vs evidence
[/center]

That, obviously, Adam's inner workings DID change, because he was supposed to live forever but then was sentenced to NOT live forever.

And "living forever" is a DNA sequence?
What's the scientific evidence of that hypothesis?

That is where God re-programming the DNA has to come in.

OUCH.

It's going to be rather difficult to convince me that "HAS TO COME IN" is in any way scientific evidence, onewithhim.

Do you not believe what Science says about DNA being our genetic blueprint & has everything to do with what our bodies do?

I do, yes.
I do NOT yet believe your hypothesis that Adam's DNA changed in any way at all.

And that is due to the fact that you have not YET presented any evidence for it.
What you present is your opinion that it "has to come in".

Sorry, in science, opinions are NICE.. but using the phrase "has to" isn't considered evidence.


Try again, maybe.