Was Jesus and Paul wrong about the Second Coming?

[polonius]

Matt 24:34 Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

Matt 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to another. Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matt 26:64 Jesus said to him in reply, You have said so.[a] But I tell you: From now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.

1Thes 4:15-17 Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 125 by Elijah John]

Checkpoint posted:

What the link presented was not an excuse but the logical working through of what Jesus said about "this generation".

Too bad that you and others insist on taking the English meaning of "generation" and dismiss and trivialise a common Biblical usage of the term.

Your reply was:

Except that supposed Biblical understanding of the word "generation" is refuted by Matthew 16.27-28, at least in this case. Instead of "generation" Jesus says "some standing here will not taste death" 'till Jesus returns. Presumably, all of Jesus listeners at the time died. And he has not come back yet.

So either the New Testament is wrong, in which case it is not infallible. Or Jesus was wrong, in which case he is not "God" as many claim that he is.

The passage you cited, and other passages, do not refute the biblical meaning of "generation" intended by Jesus.

Each passage is talking about a different situation or aspect.

[polonius]

Lioness777 Posted:

RESPONSE: Thank you for your observation. The central question would be realistically speaking is the New Testament to be regarded as historical or fictional?

What does your explanation suggest is the answer?[/quote:70385e8589]

Why should it be \" all or nothing?\" The New Testament is a wondrous mix of legends, sermons, history and literature all woven together to make a coherent narrative. One can very respectfully ( even reverently) regard the New Testament as a combination of all genres. I find great comfort in the spiritual resurrection described by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, as I do in his admonition in 1 Corinthians 14 to worship with one\'s mind as well as the spirit.

RESPONSE: I don’t recall characterizing it as “all or nothing.� However, as a practical matter, if we want to say that scripture is “inspired� or “God breathed� and the guidance may be fact or fiction, we really can’t rely on the Bible as an infallible guide, can we? Do we get to pick the parts we like and reject those we don’t like?

You asked whether or not my explanation would consider the New Testament to be either fictional or historical, a dualistic paradigm that leaves me without a potential third option : \" both and more.\"

RESPONSE: Same response as above. Do we get to pick and choose what we accept as truth and what we believe to be fiction, making our decision on what choice agrees with what we want to do?

We are commanded by Jesus in the Gospels to love the Lord our God with all our hearts, minds, bodies and strength. We\'re also commanded to love our neighbors as ourselves. That is the Biblical litmus test that has been reiterated by the parables attributed to him. You help others in need, you\'re helping the Lord who exists through them and through him they exist. You withhold that help, you\'re denying the Lord.

RESPONSE: Most of the Holy Books of the world’s major religions say basically the same type of things. The Old Testament may be the exception.

Read in a certain way, the Bible can be a wondrous affirmation of deistic thought. God can be perceived through what he made. We should render gratitude to God. Our attitudes and actions will judge us in the here and now and our character is formed by those actions and attitudes. If the church is the Body of Christ, that is where we will most fully encounter Christ in community, denominational variances notwithstanding.

RESPONSE: Once again compare the New Testament with the writings of other world religions’ Holy Books and you can find similar passages. Wasn’t it the Catholic Church which first described itself as “the Body of Christ�?

“In Christian theology, the term Body of Christ has two main but separate meanings: it may refer to Jesus' words over the bread at the Last Supper that "This is my body" in Luke 22:19-20, or to the usage of the term by the Apostle Paul in I Corinthians and Ephesians 4:1-16to refer to the Christian Church. It may also refer to Christ's post-resurrection body in Heaven.
There are significant differences in how Christians understand the term as used by Christ at the Last Supper and as developed in Christian theology of the Eucharist. For some it may be symbolic, for others it becomes a more literal or mystical understanding.�
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_of_Christ

There is a lot to ponder on all of your responses, but in the general context of what I have read on MOST ALL of your replies is that none of you have the true grasp of :

#1 the second coming
#2: Resurrection and Ascension
#3.the "generation" that shall not pass away.
#4. The N. T. as to be regarded as a fictional book.

RESPONSE:

#1. The seconding coming – It did not occur in Jesus’ generation as he prophicized. In fact, it still hasn’t.

#2 Resurrection and the Ascension – The formal Resurrection story seems to have been written by Paul about 25 years after it was said to have occurred. Neither Paul not the original Mark had an Ascension story. An Ascension account was added to Mark’s gospel in the second century. Matthew and Luke used Mark as their primary source for the stories they wrote.

#3. The “generation� that shall not pass away, was identified as his generation by Jesus.

Matthew 16:28 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
28 "Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.� Perhaps you overlooked this passage and the generation it specified, that is, “there are some standing here….� That's pretty specific!

#4. The N. T. as to be regarded as a fictional book.
Contradictions evidence this. Did Jesus send for and ride two animals when entering Jerusalem (Matthew) or send for only one animal and ride it entering Jerusalem (Mark, Luke, and John)? Was Jesus born during the reign of King Herod who died in 4 B.C.(Matthew) , or during the census of Quirinius in 6 AD (Luke) etc.?

32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

RESPONSE: But it did, and the second coming didn’t occur “for some standing here.� Also Jesus also said that the Mosaic Law would not pass away, but Paul pretty much abolished it.

This word "generation" depicts now OUR generation. And the KEY to this word starts with Israel becoming a state in 1948...The generation is ours now..and it is dying out, for all those born in that time are up in the 70's and 80's ....for God has now opened up the ways and means of the Jews 'coming home' which He promised in Deut. 30:1-11...after scattering them hither and yon....if you know your history...

RESPONSE: No. As Matt 16 proves, it was Jesus' generation Jesus was speaking of, as does the passage in which Jesus tells his apostles that they will not have gone through all the towns or Israel before he returns, or when Jesus tells the high priest that the high priest will witness Jesus returning on the clouds of heaven. Read! Learn!

Now the statement of: "Our attitudes and actions will judge us in the here and now and our character is formed by those actions and attitudes." is true, but the first step to make sure our attitude and action is in compliance with what Jesus taught and wants us to do is the acceptance of Him as our Savior, and to ask Him into our lives of which then we will be given the HS to where we will then be taught how to behave in such a way to please Jesus and His father. As well as thru our Christian attitude, we will also be a testament to those that do not believe.

RESPONSE: Interesting claim. But anyone can preach and make such a claim; some even make a good living at it.

The Bible is not a book of fairy tales believe me...The passages are quite explicit on how, why and where, and what...it is of course YOUR CHOICE to accept Gods word.

.

RESPONSE: I’m afraid I can’t believe you, because although it is a nice story, contradictions and common sense show much of it isn’t historical (that is, it never happened as described).

[Freethinker43]

Freethinker 43 asked:

Why should it be " all or nothing?" The New Testament is a wondrous mix of legends, sermons, history and literature all woven together to make a coherent narrative. One can very respectfully ( even reverently) regard the New Testament as a combination of all genres. I find great comfort in the spiritual resurrection described by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, as I do in his admonition in 1Corinthians 14 to worship with one's mind as well as the spirit.

.

RESPONSE: You left out the term "fiction."

But lets take a look at Paul's Corinthians 15 which was written in the 50's (Jesus was crucified in the early 30s).

1. So at the onset, we have to recognize that this was written about 30 years after the supposed fact,

2. Paul was a non-witness having only joined the Christian movement about 3 years after the "Resurrection."

3. He wrote to the Corinthians 817 mile away from Jerusalem who really wouldn't be expected to know what had occurred.

4. Prior to Paul's story, none of the 500 persons who Paul said saw the risen Christ either wrote anything about this wondrous occurrence nor did the thousands they would have told do so. These would have included Jews, Gentiles, Greeks, and Romans. But not a word!

5. If you look up a Greek copy of Paul 1 Corinthians, you will find he uses the word "appeared" relating to the sighting of Jesus.If you look up the actual translation in Strong's Lexicon you will find that the word Paul uses is used for "visions" not necessarily actual sightings. (Paul had lots of various visions himself which he describes in his epistles).

So, does the evidence support the view that this writing really described a resurrected Christ?

No. The evidence thus presented describes dreams about Christ that presents him as living and that can't be objectively accepted as literally true. This actually describes more the influence Christian teaching about Christ had on new converts. This relegates the whole thing to metaphor. I would suppose that as frowned on as " picking and choosing" what sections of the Bible are true and which sections may be safely ignored, that is something Christian groups do as a matter of course ( otherwise, disrespectful children would be stoned to death, tattoos would be outlawed, I can go on), as it is simply an unworkable proposition to accept all parts of the Bible whole and entire. So sure, we have a responsibility to read the Bible or any literature in a discerning way.

[Checkpoint]

Matt 24:34 Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

Curious, which generation do you think he was talking about and why?

Those who debate this do so by using the common meaning found in the English language and culture. Thus they either say it is the generation alive in Jesus' day, or the one alive at a future second coming.

I don't think he was talking about that kind of "generation" at all, one that exists for less than 100 years and is succeeded by another.

To be sure, that is also a common meaning found in the Bible, as seen, for example, in the genealogies found in Matthew and Luke.

However, there is also another common biblical usage of "generation" that refers, not to time but to type of person and their destiny.

That is, to those who are good or evil, or righteous or unrighteous, and therefore chosen or not chosen; those who will pass away when the "until" arrives, and those who will not pass away but live forever.

These scriptures illustrate this:

Proverbs 30:

11 There is a generation that curses their father, and does not bless their mother.
12 There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet are not washed from their filthiness.
13 There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up.

Psalm 14:5:

There they were in great fear, for God is in the generation of the righteous.

Luke 16:8:

And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 134 by Checkpoint]

Interesting, but what is your evidence Jesus was using the word "generation" in the very broadest Biblical sense?

Especially in light of Matthew 16.27,28 when Jesus said "some standing here will not taste death" until Jesus 2nd coming.

[polonius]

Freethinker43 posted:

No. The evidence thus presented describes dreams about Christ that presents him as living and that can't be objectively accepted as literally true. This actually describes more the influence Christian teaching about Christ had on new converts. This relegates the whole thing to metaphor. I would suppose that as frowned on as " picking and choosing" what sections of the Bible are true and which sections may be safely ignored, that is something Christian groups do as a matter of course ( otherwise, disrespectful children would be stoned to death, tattoos would be outlawed, I can go on), as it is simply an unworkable proposition to accept all parts of the Bible whole and entire. So sure, we have a responsibility to read the Bible or any literature in a discerning way.

RESPONSE:

Very well presented! Unfortunately I don't think that JW will accept it. But I could be wrong

[Lioness777]

-Elijah John

What the link presented was not an excuse but the logical working through of what Jesus said about \"this generation\".

Too bad that you and others insist on taking the English meaning of \"generation\" and dismiss and trivialise a common Biblical usage of the term.


[quote:87b80e7c50]Except that supposed Biblical understanding of the word \"generation\" is refuted by Matthew 16.27-28, at least in this case. Instead of \"generation\" Jesus says \"some standing here will not taste death\" \'till Jesus returns. Presumably, all of Jesus listeners at the time died. And he has not come back yet.

So either the New Testament is wrong, in which case it is not infallible. Or Jesus was wrong, in which case he is not \"God\" as many claim that he is.

The passage you quoted, and other passages, do not refute the biblical meaning of \"generation\" intended by Jesus.

Each passage is talking about a different situation or aspect.


What does generation mean to you-Elijah John? The word "Generation" is exactly what it says..let's take a dictionary explanation of it.: a quick nutshell explanation is:" the average span of time between the birth of parents and that of their offspring" to the parents death.."

Now it is true that man has had a roller coaster of generation spans from Methuselah who lived 980 some odd years to Moses at 120, and getting shorter as the years go on to what we know of now that the average span of time is approx 80 years. That is because of the Genisis generation where man was SUPPOSE to live in perfection forever...and because of the sin committed, life now was going to be shortened...

now, the statement that Jesus made is not a symbolic statement. Let's look at the very fist question that the apostles asked Christ "

" 3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be?

And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?�

ok, so, now they have asked Christ to tell them these signs of which He does.

And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[a] these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. We are now in those times of 'sorrows' yes, thruout time these 'signs' have been so...but now, we are in an atomic bomb age where life as we know it can be wiped out...and I know you are not blind to the fact of all these strange weather patterns happening, the growing immorality and violence, the nations all poised to strike and war emminant...


9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.


12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.


32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer isnear. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it[d] is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Now if Jesus were refering to THEIR generation they wouldn't be there now would they and Jesus would be ruling..well, that hasn't happened.

True each 'generation' thru out the 2,000 years of waiting each thought that their generation will be "IT." and it obviously hasn't.

So, our generation (Mine) for I am 70 has seen a lot of changes since I was a kid, and I fully believe that we are the 'last generation' before we are RAPTURED..this is the beginning of the trials and TRIBULATION that those left behind will be enduring...your generation, will be seeing a most terrible time..but then if you live thru the tribulation you then will be looking at a 1000 years of peace in the Millinium. Now, in the Millennium a generation will depend on the span between birth and death of those that are mortal.

So, true, even at that time Jesus told everyone that NO ONE will know of His cominging only His Father...this is, I am sure purposely done to keep people on their toes and watching and remaining faithful, and running the race with hope of an eternal and blessed future. [/u]

[Lioness777]

[Replying to post 129 by polonius.advice]

ummmm sorry Polonius, but I believe you had better check out your facts before you become so bold with your statements...for just what do you think the 'land of milk and honey was?

[Lioness777]

[Replying to post 125 by Elijah John]
Three interpretations

the word "Generation also has a few other 'meanings which one has to read
the context of the Bible to find out which meaning the word 'generation' means. Here are three meanings of generation put into ways to describe how the word 'generation' is to be taken.

1

-About 40 years
-Average age of first time fathers
-Time between generations in genealogy
Agrees totally with Bible's usage: Lk 17:25
To Greeks, generation was 30-33 years
(Herodotus 2:142; Heraclius Ch 11)
2

-Generation refers to the entire "race" of Jews
Where does Bible use the word this way
"This race is a wicked race?" Lk 11:29
3

-"This generation" In Mt 24:34 refers to some
distant future 40 year period, (ie.1990's-2000's)
Jesus' hearers did see signs & did flee city!
Why apply it to any other generation?


the third explanation is the one that is the most relevant to the interpretation of 'end times, and how Jesus meant it.

The generation that is most important is the one that is the generation that has seen the statehood of Israel, in 1948...for this is, to believing Christians, the KEY that starts the generation that will see the end times as well as the rapture. We already are in the 'time of sorrows" which is the precurser of the Rapture, and Tribulation.

[polonius]

[Replying to post 125 by Elijah John]
Three interpretations

the word "Generation also has a few other 'meanings which one has to read
the context of the Bible to find out which meaning the word 'generation' means. Here are three meanings of generation put into ways to describe how the word 'generation' is to be taken.

1

-About 40 years
-Average age of first time fathers
-Time between generations in genealogy
Agrees totally with Bible's usage: Lk 17:25
To Greeks, generation was 30-33 years
(Herodotus 2:142; Heraclius Ch 11)
2

-Generation refers to the entire "race" of Jews
Where does Bible use the word this way
"This race is a wicked race?" Lk 11:29
3

-"This generation" In Mt 24:34 refers to some
distant future 40 year period, (ie.1990's-2000's)
Jesus' hearers did see signs & did flee city!
Why apply it to any other generation?


the third explanation is the one that is the most relevant to the interpretation of 'end times, and how Jesus meant it.

The generation that is most important is the one that is the generation that has seen the statehood of Israel, in 1948...for this is, to believing Christians, the KEY that starts the generation that will see the end times as well as the rapture. We already are in the 'time of sorrows" which is the precurser of the Rapture, and Tribulation.

RESPONSE: Jesus was perfectly clear about what generation he was referring to.

Matthew 16:28
8 "Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

Obviously those who were standing there were living in Jesus's generation.

But for those who cannot accept that Jesus was in error, it's necessary to use their imaginations to come up with some explanation in which Jesus didn't really mean exactly what he said.

They have to try to use the Rapture story (is that anywhere in the New Testament?) Or they ignore what Jesus said and try to somehow claim the statehood of Israel is being referred to.

But those using common sense and observing what Jesus actually said know otherwise!