The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from the following exchange between myself and Pinseeker:

PinSeeker wrote:

The millennium of Revelation 20 is not a future event. It was when Jeremiah prophesied, obviously, but is not anymore. Or, to be more exacting, it's no longer merely a future event.

Checkpoint asked:

Then why do so many believers think of it as yet future only?

Pinseeker explained:

For at least two reasons, I think:

1. A basic misunderstanding of Revelation as a whole, and the Millennium of chapter 20 included.

2. Many believers (primarily western believers) have bought into the heresy of the "rapture," which came about in the early 19th century. It's not that they are heretics, it's just that that's all they've ever been exposed to.

That's one take from one school of thought.

Your take may be similar or be completely different.

Please share it here, and tell us why you hold that position.

[JehovahsWitness]

• “When you say from and "in an earthly perspective ...when someone dies they no longer exist " are you refering to their physical death…?"

Yes, but from our physical perspective only.

So when the physical body ceases the person (conscious existence thought actions feelings) continue to exist elsewhere.... what part of them continues to exist in your opinion is the part that survives their body (is there a bible word you can use)?

A) soul
B) spirit
C) both
D) other ...





Thanks,

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Are you here suggesting the passage below refers to the suffering of people after their death? If so based on what?

ECCLESIATES 4:1 -3

Again I turned my attention to all the acts of oppression that go on under the sun. I saw the tears of the oppressed, and there was no one to comfort them. And their oppressors had the power, and there was no one to comfort them. And I congratulated the dead who had already died rather than the living who were still alive. And better off than both of them is the one who has not yet been born, who has not seen the distressing deeds that are done under the sun.

In a certain sense, yes. But really, no. ...

Really no? Okay fair enough.

JW

[PinSeeker]

The separation of the sheep and the goats occurs at the beginning of the thousand years, when Christ returns...

I, for one, am well aware that's your take on it, Tam. I disagree. What Jesus says in Matthew 25 is very clear. The separation of the sheep and the goats and the Judgment are one and the same event.

This kind of brings us full circle. We are in the Millennium now. It began at Pentecost, and will end when Jesus returns. Then the Judgment and the separation, and then... well, eternity.

Check this out:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/l ... nnium-938/

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

But what if the sentence for his crime is death.

You're going beyond the point. I knew you would... <eyeroll>

You're so wise.

He goes to the death chamber and is executed. And we never see him again.

This is the temporal world, myth-one, and not the eternal.

Death only applies to the temporal world.

That is a given

Spiritual beings cannot die.

[PinSeeker]

But what if the sentence for his crime is death.

You're going beyond the point. I knew you would... <eyeroll>

You're so wise.

Well thank you, myth-one, but, of course, all glory to God... not PinSeeker.

He goes to the death chamber and is executed. And we never see him again.

This is the temporal world, myth-one, and not the eternal.

Death only applies to the temporal world. Spiritual beings cannot die.

Um, we weren't debating what death is or who experiences it here, myth-one, but rather the difference between having been judged by Jesus and being under God's judgment, or condemnation. The first is a once-and-for-all event (for all), and the second is everlasting (for those consigned to it).

[PinSeeker]

@JehovahsWitness:

• “Are you suggesting there is something in (Genesis 1:26-27) that suggests a conscious part of man that survives the death of the body?â€�

Yes.

• “If so what?â€�

I think I was quite clear.

No, it is not clear to me. Would you like to express in English words what words in the verse supports a conscious part of man that survives the death of the body?

I had previously stated the following:

The words, “soul� and “spirit,� are employed in varying senses within the different biblical contexts in which they may be found. However, “spirit� may refer to the “inward man� (2 Corinthians 4:16) that is fashioned in God’s image (Genesis 1:26-27), and thus be a synonym of “soul.� Solomon noted that the “spirit of man is the lamp of the LORD� (Proverbs 20:27); this is an allusion to that element of man that distinguishes him from the beasts of the earth. It is in this context that I am using and equating the terms.

... I'll admit I've never seen this verse used to support the immortality of the soul and would be very interested in seeing how you attempt to build an argument from this.

It seems to me unnecessary to "build an argument." Do you think God created things (human or otherwise) to die? Or to cease to exist? I say no; this is a big part of being made in His image. And to His creation as a whole, after His creation act, He declared it all "very good."

[myth-one.com]

We are in the Millennium now. It began at Pentecost, and will end when Jesus returns.

So Jesus is not present during the Millennium?

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 55 by Checkpoint]

The meaning of verse 5 focuses on the rest of the dead (other than the co-rulers with Christ) "coming to life" when the thousand years were ended. What does "coming to
life" actually mean? Does it mean that the dead are resurrected AFTER the thousand years? Or does it mean that these dead have passed the test, if you will, of accepting the truth about God and Christ during the Millennial Reign, and then living according to the "new scrolls" that were opened when Armageddon was over (Rev.20:12), then making themselves eligible for everlasting life? The fact that these formerly dead people have now proven their faithfulness to God and Christ makes them approved to live forever---thus "coming to life".....the real life, the life that will never end.

This makes the most sense to me, and it's not just because someone said that is what verse 5 means.

Thank you for further explaining what makes the most sense to you, onewithhim.

However, that explanation is only possible when what the verse says is directly contradicted.

The verse says "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were over", doesn't it?

What did you say?

"that these dead have passed the test...during the Millennial Reign", didn't you?

They cannot do that while they remain dead until that reign is over.

Why on earth do I have to spell that out to you?

Where are you, onewithhim?

Grace and peace.

The verse says that the rest of the dead (other than the ones who participated in the first resurrection, who will rule with Christ) "did not come to life" until the thousand years were completed (NASB ). The issue is: What does it mean, that they "did not come to life"? Why does it have to mean "they weren't resurrected" until the thousand years were over"? Why can't it mean that they weren't eligible to LIVE FOREVER (really "coming to life") until the end of the thousand years?

"Life" here means the real life---that is, ETERNAL life, not merely life given back to the dead. The rest of the dead truly were able to come to the REAL life---eternal life.

Paul even said that this life---just breathing---is not the real life.

"Instruct them to be good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is LIFE INDEED." (NASB)
(the life that is TRUE life) (NAB)

(the life that is TRULY LIFE) (NIV)


Is that not enough to show you that "life" to a Christian who is looking to live forever is just that---ETERNAL life? That unending life is the REAL life?

I think that is what Revelation 20:5 is speaking of, and I have not added anything to, or contradicted, the verse as it stands.

On reflection, I have tentatively concluded that none of us can be sure of just who "the rest of the dead" are, and why they are mentioned at all.

The passage tells us nothing directly.

What you say about "came to life" seems to be consistent within that context.

So thank you for that; it is never too late to learn more.

Grace and peace to you.

Thank you for responding to my post.

I think that "the rest of the dead" are mentioned because they are a significant part of God's purpose for humans. They are most of mankind who have ever lived!

The ones who take part in the first resurrection are the relatively few that will rule with Christ in heaven. The rest of the dead are everybody else! They will not rule with Christ but will be the recipients of Christ's and his 144,000 co-rulers' loving and kind guidance and protection during the Millennial Reign, right here on Earth. The people who are resurrected (the second resurrection), that is, will be here on Earth, with Christ ruling from heaven with those of the first resurrection.

Your post presented one of several alternatives about who "the rest of the dead" are.

Thanks, but for now I remain uncertain, and that is ok with me.

Grace and peace.

[myth-one.com]

It seems to me unnecessary to "build an argument." Do you think God created things (human or otherwise) to die? Or to cease to exist? I say no; this is a big part of being made in His image. And to His creation as a whole, after His creation act, He declared it all "very good."

Finally an admission -- it needs no proof. It's obvious!

You are in the majority.

As knowledge has progressed over the years we understand more about our physical death. We know that we die. We see decaying animals and know that our bodies end up likewise.

The part we do not understand is our personalities, our thinking processes, our emotions, our non-physical processes. These are the processes which many believe separates us from the other animals.

We even assign it a name, calling it our "soul," and assigning to each soul eternal life.

From The Random House College Dictionary, the noun soul is defined as follows:

1. The principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in man, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body; the spiritual part of man as distinct from the physical part.
2. The spiritual part of man regarded in its moral aspect, or as capable of surviving death and subject to happiness or misery in a life to come.

So not only did Satan lie to mankind when he stated, "Ye shall not surely die," mankind still believes the lie and has a word defining that part of man which lives forever!

We are therefore the perfect victims for Satan's lie of, "Ye shall not surely die."

It is exactly what we want to believe.

With no "proof" required.

It's so obvious.

[PinSeeker]

It seems to me unnecessary to "build an argument." Do you think God created things (human or otherwise) to die? Or to cease to exist? I say no; this is a big part of being made in His image. And to His creation as a whole, after His creation act, He declared it all "very good."

Finally an admission -- it needs no proof. It's obvious!

You are in the majority.

As knowledge has progressed over the years we understand more about our physical death. We know that we die. We see decaying animals and know that our bodies end up likewise.

The part we do not understand is our personalities, our thinking processes, our emotions, our non-physical processes. These are the processes which many believe separates us from the other animals.

We even assign it a name, calling it our "soul," and assigning to each soul eternal life.

From The Random House College Dictionary, the noun soul is defined as follows:

1. The principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in man, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body; the spiritual part of man as distinct from the physical part.
2. The spiritual part of man regarded in its moral aspect, or as capable of surviving death and subject to happiness or misery in a life to come.

So not only did Satan lie to mankind when he stated, "Ye shall not surely die," mankind still believes the lie and has a word defining that part of man which lives forever!

We are therefore the perfect victims for Satan's lie of, "Ye shall not surely die."

It is exactly what we want to believe.

With no "proof" required.

It's so obvious.

LOL!!! Hoo, boy. Peace, brother.