The transendent, Living God

[Elijah John]

Most believers agree that God cannot be depicted with images. That would be a violation of the 2nd Commandment.

Questions for debate, can the Living God be contained in one collection of books known as the Bible? Or is He bigger than the Bible?

If He transcends, then can the Qur'an also teach us about God? Or nature itself? Do we have anything to learn from other religions?

And finally, if one believes the Bible is all we can know about God, is that limiting the Living, transcendent God?

Can God be contained in any theology, tradition, Church, or holy book? Or does He transcend them all?

[tam]

[Replying to post 17 by JehovahsWitness]

To be clear, I did not claim that the scribes wrote false prophecies. (as Jeremiah does not state this either in that verse)

Scribes have made errors. That is all. Something that you, yourself, acknowledged on this thread:

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=29906

That thread is an example of a scribal error, is it not?

So we can leave the entire Jeremiah 8:8 out of the picture to make this point.


Hell is placed in the bible where it should not be (also the mainstream teaching on what hell is, is wrong to begin with). LORD replaces YHWH. Translations for a few verses are slanted in favor of supporting the trinity, as you know.

Even one verse (at least) from the NWT was written in error.

"This means life, their TAKING IN KNOWLEDGE of you..."

(which is what I was told I was doing when I was doing my bible study)


The verse is more accurately rendered:


This means life, their KNOWING you...

Taking in knowledge of someone and actually knowing someone are not the same thing. Taking in knowledge does not denote a union; knowing someone DOES denote a union.

I believe the verse has been updated recently and now states 'coming to know' you.



In any case, these are examples of scribal errors.



But to repeat what I stated before:

This does not in any way speak against God, Himself. Because God sent us His Truth and Word in Christ. We are to worship in spirit and in truth.

We are not meant to keep searching the scriptures for eternal life; or to know God. We are meant to come to Christ and listen to Him.

and...

Yes, we can learn the truth despite those inaccuracies. Sometimes with context, but anytime by listening to the actual Word of God: Christ.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

So we can leave the entire Jeremiah 8:8 out of the picture to make this point.

You were the one that referred to Jeremiah 8:8 so what was your point exactly?

Because you know that the Bible contains some inaccuracies, at least in translation.

Inaccurate translation is no more an biblical error than spilling your coffee on your marriage certificate means you were not legally married. Not all translations are equal, and some are more fatihful to the original text than others, but legitimate or not translataions do not fall under the catagory of "scribal errors" when discussing historical literature.

In any case the occassional corrected copyist error is a far cry from suggesting that the integrity of the text has been corrupted and the original meaning so distorted that it can no lonter be trusted to be a true reflection of what God originally intended; which is what some bible critics claim. The fact that we can identify and (for the most part) correct any scribal (copist) errors means we can indeed have confidence that what we are reading has been accurately transmitted as intended to our day; and that the few minor errors that remain unresolved have no impact on the meaning and message of scripture.

[tam]

So we can leave the entire Jeremiah 8:8 out of the picture to make this point.

You were the one that referred to Jeremiah 8:8 so what was your point exactly?

Just to provide support that even Scripture refers to scribal error. Not just Jeremiah, but also Christ, makes reference to this; but that these errors are from men... not God. So to suggest that somehow God is 'less' because men did not take better care when scribing... is unjust and wrong. I feel quite certain that you would not want to speak badly OF God. So I simply urged caution in your words; lest you speak badly of Him in ignorance.

But you may do with that advice as you choose.


**

But rather than get sidetracked into a discussion about what Jeremiah might have been referring to, we can just refer to things that we KNOW have happened.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Elijah John]

you forget to mention the Zen Taoist and Buddhist understanding of god. God simply is. And I will say, we have to deal with this.
God is and all the teachings of men are subject to critique.
Do you really know what Jesus was teaching?

"God Is" Judaism and Christianity would agree with you. The name of God, YHVH means roughly "I AM".

So, what do you think Jesus was teaching?

If your question is not just a rhetorical question, I think Jesus proclaimed the Father's forgiveness, and expansive love even to outcasts and the downtrodden. Jesus glorified the Father, and taught the Fatherhood of God. He also taught the importance of interior motivations in doing God's will, following God's law. And taught simple repentance.

That is not comprehensive, but I think it's a good start. Do you want to add anything?

[JehovahsWitness]

Just to provide support that even Scripture refers to scribal error.

tammy

That's what I thought and why I posted to prove that Jeremiah 8:8 in no way refers to scribal errors in inspired scripture. Feel free to refer to my post and try and present counterarguments to the points made should you so wish.


JW

[dio9]

you forget to mention the Zen Taoist and Buddhist understanding of god. God simply is. And I will say, we have to deal with this.
God is and all the teachings of men are subject to critique.
Do you really know what Jesus was teaching?

"God Is" Judaism and Christianity would agree with you. The name of God, YHVH means roughly "I AM".

So, what do you think Jesus was teaching?

If your question is not just a rhetorical question, I think Jesus proclaimed the Father's forgiveness, and expansive love even to outcasts and the downtrodden. Jesus glorified the Father, and taught the Fatherhood of God. He also taught the importance of interior motivations in doing God's will, following God's law. And taught simple repentance.

That is not comprehensive, but I think it's a good start. Do you want to add anything?

Sure do, Some of his best teachings come from his debates with Pharisees. Matt. 9:14 , for one. In response to people who asked why he and his disciples don't practice fasting, he said can the wedding guests fast while the bridegroom is with them". A wedding is a time for eating drinking and making merry. In this wonderful way Jesus is telling them this is the beginning of the Messianic age and he is ushering it in. The scribes and Pharisees just didn't get it. They were so hung up on their laws they weren't able to join his party.

[tam]

Just to provide support that even Scripture refers to scribal error.

tammy

That's what I thought and why I posted to prove that Jeremiah 8:8 in no way refers to scribal errors in inspired scripture. Feel free to refer to my post and try and present counterarguments to the points made should you so wish.


JW

I would rather not get distracted on a side matter, because the point remains true, that there are inaccuracies in what is written. Those inaccuracies have helped to further the cause of false doctrines, as you, yourself, admitted on the thread I linked to.


The commentaries are just that: commentaries. Some differ in opinion.

The term "scribe" is not used in the bible uniquely for those that copied scripture indeed according to The Pulpit Commentary states that that was a " meaning which only became prevalent in the time of Ezra (comp. Ezra 7:6, 11)."

Sure, but the verse also refers to the lying pen of the scribes.

Regardless, even Christ said, 'woe to you scribes'.

In Jeremiah's day "scribes" were trained copyists or secretaries. Hebrew Scribes acted as public notaries, prepared bills of divorce, and recorded other transactions, they also numbered and enrolled troops, recording temple duties (Jg 5:14; compare 2Ki 25:19; 2Ch 26:11; 2Ch 34:9, 13; 2Ki 12:10-12). A scribe later came to refer to a person educated in the Law. The Pulpit Commentary further states "Soferim (scribes) is the term proper to all those who practiced the art of writing (sefer); it included, therefore, presumably at least, most, if not all, of the priests and prophets of whom Jeremiah speaks.

This does not counter my point.

Barnes Notes on the Bible goes on to state "It is not until the time of Josiah 2 Chronicles 34:13 that "scribes" are mentioned except as political officers; here, however, they are students of the Torah. The Torah must have existed in writing before there could have been an order of men whose special business it was to study it; and therefore to explain this verse by saying that perhaps the scribes were writers of false prophecies written in imitation of the true, is to lose the whole gist of the passage."

I was not saying that to begin with.

CONCLUSION: The context of Jeremiah's words do not imply a corruption of the inspired writings of the bible but rather to "scribes" as respected teachers of the law that and communicated falsehoods.

Just a point of interest: when falsehoods are communicated, they get set in a person's mind. Which creates a bias. Which bias can communicate itself into what is written, when what is written must be copied, transcribed, translated.

Which we have real world examples of, when it comes to so called trinity verses.

Hence, lying PEN of the scribes.


Lying pen of the scribes may also refer to commentary, and extra-biblical writings - which are in error, but which mislead the people.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

Just to provide support that even Scripture refers to scribal error.

tammy

That's what I thought and why I posted to prove that Jeremiah 8:8 in no way refers to scribal errors in inspired scripture. Feel free to refer to my post and try and present counterarguments to the points made should you so wish.


JW

I would rather not get distracted on a side matter...

Fair enough, it might be an idea then not to bring up side matters then. To suggest that there is a scriptural basis in Jeremiah that supports a view and then to dismiss that point as a side matter when challenged is fine, if you feel comfortable with that so do I.

My post was simply to point out that the scripture had been misapplied.

JW

[tam]

[Replying to post 28 by JehovahsWitness]

While I would rather not get distracted onto a side matter (since the point stands with or without that verse), please note that I did, in fact, respond to your commentary.

Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 29 by tam]

You did? Did you actually address any of the points I raised in the post below?

The Bible contains some inaccuracies [...] Jeremiah 8:8 also speaks about the false stylus of the scribes.

QUESTION Is it reasonable to conclude that Jeremiah 8:8 implies that the scribes in Jeremiah's day had corrupted the scriptures ?

Jeremiah contains God's condemnation of the ruling classes and the people of Judah for their unfaithfulness. Among those condemned where the scribes in Jeremiah's day.

"My own people do not understand the judgment of Jehovah" How can you say: We are wise, and we have the law of Jehovah? For in fact, the lying stylus of the scribes has been used only for falsehood." Jer 8:8

The term "scribe" is not used in the bible uniquely for those that copied scripture indeed according to The Pulpit Commentary states that that was a " meaning which only became prevalent in the time of Ezra (comp. Ezra 7:6, 11)." In Jeremiah's day "scribes" were trained copyists or secretaries. Hebrew Scribes acted as public notaries, prepared bills of divorce, and recorded other transactions, they also numbered and enrolled troops, recording temple duties (Jg 5:14; compare 2Ki 25:19; 2Ch 26:11; 2Ch 34:9, 13; 2Ki 12:10-12). A scribe later came to refer to a person educated in the Law. The Pulpit Commentary further states "Soferim (scribes) is the term proper to all those who practiced the art of writing (sefer); it included, therefore, presumably at least, most, if not all, of the priests and prophets of whom Jeremiah speaks.

Barnes Notes on the Bible goes on to state "It is not until the time of Josiah 2 Chronicles 34:13 that "scribes" are mentioned except as political officers; here, however, they are students of the Torah. The Torah must have existed in writing before there could have been an order of men whose special business it was to study it; and therefore to explain this verse by saying that perhaps the scribes were writers of false prophecies written in imitation of the true, is to lose the whole gist of the passage."

CONCLUSION: The context of Jeremiah's words do not imply a corruption of the inspired writings of the bible but rather to "scribes" as respected teachers of the law that and communicated falsehoods.


QUESTION But does not the second clause in Jeremiah 8:8 b imply that the scribes have corrupted the law (Torah)?

How can you say, "We are wise! We have the law of the LORD"? The truth is, those who teach it have used their writings to make it say what it does not really mean.

The Pulpits Commentary draws out attention to the lack of object for the verb make or labored "the necessity of supplying an object to the verb - the object would hardly have been omitted where its emission renders the meaning of the clause so doubtful". In short, the verse doesn't explicitly state WHAT has been corrupted; the the writings (The Law) or the teachings/(written explanations). Given the context of the words (see above) it is only reasonable to conclude the latter; ie Jeremiah is condemning false interprtations not lamenting the corruption of the written word of God.

I ask because I don't recall any counterargument regarding

- the meaning of the word "scribe" as used in the passage.
- the functions of scribes in Jeremiah's day
- when historically the word came to refer to those that copied divine scripture
or...
- the ambiguity of the lack of the object in the second clause of the scripture

If you actually did respond to any of the points above feel free to direct me to them so I can re-read and address them in kind.


Thanks,

JW