The transendent, Living God

[Elijah John]

Most believers agree that God cannot be depicted with images. That would be a violation of the 2nd Commandment.

Questions for debate, can the Living God be contained in one collection of books known as the Bible? Or is He bigger than the Bible?

If He transcends, then can the Qur'an also teach us about God? Or nature itself? Do we have anything to learn from other religions?

And finally, if one believes the Bible is all we can know about God, is that limiting the Living, transcendent God?

Can God be contained in any theology, tradition, Church, or holy book? Or does He transcend them all?

[tam]

Funny. Without speaking in defense of beating another person, slave or not, I always read that verse as "If he survives (gets up, continues on) after a day or two, the owner will not be punished."


but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property. NIV


http://biblehub.com/exodus/21-21.htm




Peace to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 9 by JehovahsWitness]

Sorry, but beating a slave half to death then the slave dying after a few days is a forseeable consequence to the action of beating the slave, which is permitted in Mosaic law.

The fact that the slave lingers a day or to, does not, nor should not , let the beater off the hook.

Which is what you and "Moses" seem to be attempting to do.

That is the problem with Bible literalism, which ignores context, you have to attempt to defend verses like this, and uses logical, legal, theological and linguistic gymnastics to do so.

How can you say that the Bible is the uncorrupted, infallible word of God? By so doing, you make God too small, it seems to me.

Can't you see that God transends the atrocities, absurdities, errors and contaradictions of the Bible?

If you dispute that the Bible contains these, many of us can give you a whole list of them, are you prepared to refute and reconcile each item which demonstrates the Bible is not perfect?

I think you err if you claim the Bible is perfect, only God is perfect. If you hold otherwise, isn't that making an idol out of the Bible, "Bibliolatry"?

[Elijah John]

Funny. Without speaking in defense of beating another person, slave or not, I always read that verse as "If he survives (gets up, continues on) after a day or two, the owner will not be punished."


but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property. NIV


http://biblehub.com/exodus/21-21.htm




Peace to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Tam, I read it as "it's OK to beat your slave, as long as he doesn't die right away". "Moses" justifying the beating of slaves, but not killiing them instantly.

I like your interpretation better, but I don't think that is what the verse actually says.

[tam]

Not accusing YHVH of injustice, but I am suggesting the Bible writers occasionally( if not often), misrepresent the benign character OF YHVH, projecting their own cultural bias and barbarism on Him.

No, you are accusing God of incompetence and or indifference. Any God that claims to be almighty that allows his word to either be corrupted or for himself to be misrepresented therein is incompetent. He either lacks the desire or the power to produce a single book and ensure it only contains that which is accurate. Therefore the claim to be ALMIGHTY (El Shaddai) is a lie.

Please accept this in the spirit of concern and care with which it is given. But now it is you who might consider being a bit more cautious with your words. Because you know that the Bible contains some inaccuracies, at least in translation, but including things like inserting LORD in place of the divine name; or using the word hell where it is not warranted. Jeremiah 8:8 also speaks about the false stylus of the scribes. Christ Himself said 'woe to you scribes'.

Yes, we can learn the truth despite those inaccuracies. Sometimes with context, but anytime by listening to the actual Word of God: Christ.


But there are inaccuracies. This does not in any way speak against God, Himself. Because God sent us His Truth and Word in Christ. We are to worship in spirit and in truth.

We are not meant to keep searching the scriptures for eternal life; or to know God. We are meant to come to Christ and listen to Him.

"You diligently search the scriptures because you think that by them you have eternal life. These are the scriptures that testify to me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." John 5;39


"This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him." Mark 9:7, Matt 17:5,

Or His claim to be loving and want a Relationship with his creation based on truth (not inaccuracies) is a lie. A God that cannot assure the production and protection of His word but fails to do so and then claims he loves us enough to call us to know him through that same (inaccurate word that misrepresents him and his standards) is a liar.

We can learn about God through the Bible.

But we can know God, Himself, through the Word He sent us: and that Word is Christ.

"If you know me, you know my Father also." John 14:7



Peace to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

Funny. Without speaking in defense of beating another person, slave or not, I always read that verse as "If he survives (gets up, continues on) after a day or two, the owner will not be punished."


but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property. NIV


http://biblehub.com/exodus/21-21.htm




Peace to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Tam, I read it as "it's OK to beat your slave, as long as he doesn't die right away". "Moses" justifying the beating of slaves, but not killiing them instantly.

I like your interpretation better, but I don't think that is what the verse actually says.

Click the biblehub link. It is written in both styles. I am not 100% positive which is accurate, but I think it is the one I shared. Regardless, we know of at least one instance where Moses gave a law NOT because it was true from the beginning, but because the people's hard hearts would accept nothing else.

"Moses gave you this law because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning."

That is Christ speaking on the matter of divorce. But I see no reason why divorce would be the only instance of this occurring.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Elijah John]

Funny. Without speaking in defense of beating another person, slave or not, I always read that verse as "If he survives (gets up, continues on) after a day or two, the owner will not be punished."


but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property. NIV


http://biblehub.com/exodus/21-21.htm




Peace to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Tam, I read it as "it's OK to beat your slave, as long as he doesn't die right away". "Moses" justifying the beating of slaves, but not killiing them instantly.

I like your interpretation better, but I don't think that is what the verse actually says.

Click the biblehub link. It is written in both styles. I am not 100% positive which is accurate, but I think it is the one I shared. Regardless, we know of at least one instance where Moses gave a law NOT because it was true from the beginning, but because the people's hard hearts would accept nothing else.

"Moses gave you this law because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning."

That is Christ speaking on the matter of divorce. But I see no reason why divorce would be the only instance of this occurring.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Good observation and illustration of a general principle, for those of us who consider Jesus our Rabbi, if not our God.

[JehovahsWitness]

The Bible contains some inaccuracies [...] Jeremiah 8:8 also speaks about the false stylus of the scribes.

QUESTION Is it reasonable to conclude that Jeremiah 8:8 implies that the scribes in Jeremiah's day had corrupted the scriptures ?

Jeremiah contains God's condemnation of the ruling classes and the people of Judah for their unfaithfulness. Among those condemned where the scribes in Jeremiah's day.

"My own people do not understand the judgment of Jehovah" How can you say: We are wise, and we have the law of Jehovah? For in fact, the lying stylus of the scribes has been used only for falsehood." Jer 8:8

The term "scribe" is not used in the bible uniquely for those that copied scripture indeed according to The Pulpit Commentary states that that was a " meaning which only became prevalent in the time of Ezra (comp. Ezra 7:6, 11)." In Jeremiah's day "scribes" were trained copyists or secretaries. Hebrew Scribes acted as public notaries, prepared bills of divorce, and recorded other transactions, they also numbered and enrolled troops, recording temple duties (Jg 5:14; compare 2Ki 25:19; 2Ch 26:11; 2Ch 34:9, 13; 2Ki 12:10-12). A scribe later came to refer to a person educated in the Law. The Pulpit Commentary further states "Soferim (scribes) is the term proper to all those who practiced the art of writing (sefer); it included, therefore, presumably at least, most, if not all, of the priests and prophets of whom Jeremiah speaks.

Barnes Notes on the Bible goes on to state "It is not until the time of Josiah 2 Chronicles 34:13 that "scribes" are mentioned except as political officers; here, however, they are students of the Torah. The Torah must have existed in writing before there could have been an order of men whose special business it was to study it; and therefore to explain this verse by saying that perhaps the scribes were writers of false prophecies written in imitation of the true, is to lose the whole gist of the passage."

CONCLUSION: The context of Jeremiah's words do not imply a corruption of the inspired writings of the bible but rather to "scribes" as respected teachers of the law that and communicated falsehoods.


QUESTION But does not the second clause in Jeremiah 8:8 b imply that the scribes have corrupted the law (Torah)?

How can you say, "We are wise! We have the law of the LORD"? The truth is, those who teach it have used their writings to make it say what it does not really mean.

The Pulpits Commentary draws out attention to the lack of object for the verb "the necessity of supplying an object to the verb - the object would hardly have been omitted where its emission renders the meaning of the clause so doubtful". In short, the verse doesn't explicitly state WHAT has been corrupted; the the writings (The Law) or the teachings/(written explanations). Given the context of the words (see above) it is only reasonable to conclude the latter; ie Jeremiah is condemning false interpretations not lamenting the corruption of the written word of God.





JW


RELATED POSTS

Why would God choose to communicate via the written word?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 08#p766608

What are copyist errors ?
viewtopic.php?p=1058539#p1058539

Does Jeremiah 8:8 imply that the scribes in Jeremiah's day had corrupted the scriptures ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 09#p779409

Would God's use of human "secretaries" to write the bible not have corrupted it from its start?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 83#p833783

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

THE BIBLE , CONTRADICTIONS and CORRUPTION OF SCRIPTURE

[OnceConvinced]

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[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 12 by Elijah John]

I don't know what that expression means but I do hold to 2 Tim 3:16 "

"All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right." -

... and conclude that the inspirited writings in the entirety are God's method to teach his will and purpose.


JW

[dio9]

you forget to mention the Zen Taoist and Buddhist understanding of god. God simply is. And I will say, we have to deal with this.
God is and all the teachings of men are subject to critique.
Do you really know what Jesus was teaching?