What Fraction of People Will Make it to Heaven?

[jgh7]

I've read in the bible that many will not enter the gates of Heaven. I was wondering what others think about this statistically speaking. So that's what this poll is for. If you have some verses or ideas backing up your opinion, feel free to give them.

[Left Site]

[Replying to Divine Insight]

It is not about literal women that it speaks.

2 Corinthians 11:3 "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity and the purity that is toward Christ." (ASV)

Because of how Eve was so easily deceived people like her, regardless of their genitalia, are called women in the NT. Even "silly women."

2 Timothy 3:6 "For of these are they that creep into houses, and take captive silly women laden with sins, led away by divers lusts," (ASV)

Isn't that right JW?

Are you asking me? I saw your point was addressed to someone else. In any case if you would like to know if there is any connection with Paul's words and that of Revelation, I do believe that we can understand that the 144,000 not "defiling themselves with women" is to be taken figuratively, in that they are spiritually pure and dedicated to Christ.

The "busy body" women Paul warned about were literal women, Christian sisters in the first century congregation with a little too much time on their hands, that he was counseling to mind their own business; Eve was also a literal woman, so neither were literally the women referred to in Revelation (Eve was long dead before any of the members of the 144,000 anointed class were even born).


Kudos though for trying to understand Revelation; God blesses those with a spiritual need and a thirst for knowledge.

I have to beg your pardon concerning the busy-body women being literal women. I learned that from your JW organization. And after thoroughly dissecting it, I decided they were right.

I encourage you to check that out with your governing body.

[jgh7]

Here is 14:1-5

Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Fathers name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

I do have a bible, but thank you for demonstrating your ability to copy paste.

A question: It further describes these 144,000. Specifically in verse 4, it says they never defiled themselves with women and remained virgins. Does this mean you believe the 144,000 being saved are all virgins... and possibly men?

No

You appear a little irked. I meant no disrespect. Just wanted some more clarification.

A question: It further describes these 144,000. Specifically in verse 4, it says they never defiled themselves with women and remained virgins. Does this mean you believe the 144,000 being saved are all virgins... and possibly men?

They did not defile themselves with Babylon the Great (a "woman") and her daughters (also "women").


It does not mean that these men are virgins in the flesh. Having sex (union) with one's wife does not defile a man (or a woman).


It is spiritual adultery, spiritual defilement. Like Oholah and Oholibah (Judea and Samaria) were unfaithful to God, taking other lovers, thereby defiling themselves.


(Although if one comes to Christ and is washed clean in the blood of the lamb, one would no longer be defiled.)

Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

I had a suspicion I was interpreting it too literally. Thanks for clearing that up.

[JehovahsWitness]

You appear a little irked. I meant no disrespect. Just wanted some more clarification.

I'm not irked at all, so no worries there. If at any point in the future you feel inclinded to actually make a point I will be more than happy to read it.


JW

[jgh7]

You appear a little irked. I meant no disrespect. Just wanted some more clarification.

I'm not irked at all, so no worries there. If at any point in the future you feel inclinded to actually make a point I will be more than happy to read it.


JW

Actually make a point? You sure have a knack for passive aggressively demeaning people. I pasted a short paragraph regarding the quote you provided me so we would be on the same page of what I was looking at. Then I asked a question showing what I was confused about. You responded with a sarcastic response on my awesome ability to copy-paste, then provided me a one word answer rather than explaining how I misinterpreted something. I don't know what your deal is.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 24 by jgh7]

When I said make a point, I meant make a point about the scripture you copy pasted. From what I can see the only comment you made to me (I haven't read through your comments to other people) amounted to the words "here is" (see #11 click here). I do believe I thanked you for the copy paste and answered your question (If you have any further questions about what I have posted, feel free to ask them). I could not explain if or how you "misinterpreted" the scripture because you did not post how you interpreted the scripture; at least not to me. I am not a mind reader so I cannot see what more I could have meaningfully posted.

I generally try to stick posting about the topic rather than the poster. I find that a very good way to proceed; do you have anything more to say to me on the topic over and above the very illuminating "here is"? If so, feel free to post away.

If not, have a most excellent day.

JW

[Divine Insight]

Why are the theists totally ignoring the problem that 144,000 un-defiled (i.e. purely righteous) people earning their way into heaven via their own choice to never sin violates the idea that anyone can obtain heaven through Christ via forgiveness of their sins?

Also, why would this God need 144,000 "rulers" in heaven?

Who are they going to be ruling over? And why are they even necessary? Is heaven a democracy where God needs to have a huge congress to bicker between themselves to make legislation? I thought in this religion God himself is the ultimate lawmaker?

And if these 144,000 rulers are merely going to judge people, then what's up with that? I thought this God was omniscient and knew what is in the heart and mind of every single individual. If that's the case then why would there be any need for any "judges" since God would already know who's guilty and who isn't?

I understand that the theists can argue that the doctrine itself makes these sort of claims. But that's irrelevant. The real question is: Why should anyone think that these claims make any sense? After all, if the fables make no sense then why should anyone believe in them?

Isn't that a valid theological question?

[jgh7]

[Replying to post 24 by jgh7]

When I said make a point, I meant make a point about the scripture you copy pasted. From what I can see the only comment you made to me (I haven't read through your comments to other people) amounted to the words "here is" (see #11 click here). I do believe I thanked you for the copy paste and answered your question (If you have any further questions about what I have posted, feel free to ask them). I could not explain if or how you "misinterpreted" the scripture because you did not post how you interpreted the scripture; at least not to me. I am not a mind reader so I cannot see what more I could have meaningfully posted.

I generally try to stick posting about the topic rather than the poster. I find that a very good way to proceed; do you have anything more to say to me on the topic over and above the very illuminating "here is"? If so, feel free to post away.

If not, have a most excellent day.

JW

The only comment I made was "here is"? I didn't post how I interpreted the scripture? I literally gave you my interpretation right after I posted the scripture. I interpreted it as saying the 144,000 were all virgins and possibly men. Your response was simply "no". I'm sure you realize that doesn't help me in understanding the verse.

But apparently what you chose to focus on was my "illuminating", as you put it, "here is". You come across in multiple posts as demeaning and sarcastic. I'm done talking with you.

[tam]

Why are the theists totally ignoring the problem that 144,000 un-defiled (i.e. purely righteous)

As far as I know, you are the only person defining undefiled as purely righteous (whatever that means), when the text clearly states they did not defile themselves with women.

people earning their way into heaven via their own choice to never sin

Did not defile themselves with women does not mean that they never sin. Being blameless would be with regard to not defiling themselves with women; and even if no lie is found in their mouths meant no lie on any matter, ever, that still would not mean that they have never sinned.

Also, why would this God need 144,000 "rulers" in heaven?

It would be the 144 000 (from 12 tribes of Israel) along with the great multitude that no one could count, who reign with Christ upon the earth for a thousand years. Christ loves them and so shares His reign with them.

This is the time that the sheep and the goats are being separated, the sheep (subjects of the Kingdom) entering into the Kingdom.

Who are they going to be ruling over? And why are they even necessary? Is heaven a democracy where God needs to have a huge congress to bicker between themselves to make legislation? I thought in this religion God himself is the ultimate lawmaker?

Who says that they are bickering? They are serving, helping... in truth and with mercy.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[polonius]

RESPONSE:
Only 144,000 human will go to heaven? It looks like the Jehovah Witnesses are wrong, doesnt it?

No not to me, but if it does to you that's fine. Like I said, different strokes...

No half-smart religious person actually believes the book of Revelation anymore.

So do "smart" people use the book of Revelation to prove biblical points?

RESPONSE: Perhaps what their belief systems require them to believe but not necessarily factual information. So "smart" people generally avoid believing the Book of Revelation as being factual and inspired.

The Book of Revelation is a good example

[JehovahsWitness]

I literally gave you my interpretation right after I posted the scripture.

Are you refering to this following?

A question: It further describes these 144,000. Specifically in verse 4, it says they never defiled themselves with women and remained virgins. Does this mean you believe the 144,000 being saved are all virgins... and possibly men?

Because I think I could be forgiven to understand the above to be a question. I took this to be a question for me because you wrote the word "A question" and ended with a question mark.

If it were actually not a question at all but a statement of your own belief, I would say thta if you do indeed believe that 144,000 are literally (I presume you mean literal) virgins then I think that that might be a most unusual conclusion, especially as the Apostle Peter was evidently a married man and presumably not a virgin when he was promised a place in heaven with Jesus.


JW