What Fraction of People Will Make it to Heaven?

[jgh7]

I've read in the bible that many will not enter the gates of Heaven. I was wondering what others think about this statistically speaking. So that's what this poll is for. If you have some verses or ideas backing up your opinion, feel free to give them.

[jgh7]

[Replying to post 1 by jgh7]

I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses, we believe only 144,000 of the humans that have ever lived will go to heaven (Rev 14:1)

Further reading
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... to-heaven/

Here is 14:1-5

Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Fathers name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

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A question: It further describes these 144,000. Specifically in verse 4, it says they never defiled themselves with women and remained virgins. Does this mean you believe the 144,000 being saved are all virgins... and possibly men?

[polonius]

If God controlled the writers' words directly or indirectly, then he would not have led them into error. Deceit and error are not normally attributes expected of God.

Inerrancy and Inspiration of the Bible are two closely related concepts:

"Historically, Christians have generally believed the entire Bible to be inerrant -- free of error -- in the books' original, autograph versions. However, the entire Bible was written by a group of very human authors. The only way in which fallible humans could have written so much inerrant text would have been for them to have been inspired by God. Given biblical inerrancy, one can assume that God must have overseen the creation of the Bible's text in some way, and pro-actively prevented the authors from committing any error.

Fundamentalists and other Evangelicals Christians still follow the traditional belief. Liberal Christians have generally abandoned belief in both inerrancy and inspiration of the Bible. Instead, they analyze the Bible as a historical document using techniques of "higher criticism."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_insp.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/inerran1.htm

In short. posters who quote the Bible as divine proof for their arguments are not really proving their claims. There are too many errors and contradiction in scripture to claim divine inspiration and inerrancy.

[Divine Insight]

A question: It further describes these 144,000. Specifically in verse 4, it says they never defiled themselves with women and remained virgins. Does this mean you believe the 144,000 being saved are all virgins... and possibly men?

Truly, the patriarchal nature of these fables is clear once again. Only 144,000 virgin men will make it into heaven. So apparently there will be no women in heaven.

Question for theists:

In genesis God commands men:

Genesis 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

So how did we get from Genesis where God commands men to procreate, and end up in Revelation where it appears to be implying that to be anything other than a virgin constitutes having "defiled" oneself?

Exactly how self-contradictory does this mythological paradigm need to be before the theists will confess that it isn't making any sense?

[JehovahsWitness]

Here is 14:1-5

Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Fathers name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

I do have a bible, but thank you for demonstrating your ability to copy paste.

A question: It further describes these 144,000. Specifically in verse 4, it says they never defiled themselves with women and remained virgins. Does this mean you believe the 144,000 being saved are all virgins... and possibly men?

No

[Left Site]

[Replying to Divine Insight]

It is not about literal women that it speaks.

2 Corinthians 11:3 "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity and the purity that is toward Christ." (ASV)

Because of how Eve was so easily deceived people like her, regardless of their genitalia, are called women in the NT. Even "silly women."

2 Timothy 3:6 "For of these are they that creep into houses, and take captive silly women laden with sins, led away by divers lusts," (ASV)

Isn't that right JW?

[tam]

A question: It further describes these 144,000. Specifically in verse 4, it says they never defiled themselves with women and remained virgins. Does this mean you believe the 144,000 being saved are all virgins... and possibly men?

They did not defile themselves with Babylon the Great (a "woman") and her daughters (also "women").


It does not mean that these men are virgins in the flesh. Having sex (union) with one's wife does not defile a man (or a woman).


It is spiritual adultery, spiritual defilement. Like Oholah and Oholibah (Judea and Samaria) were unfaithful to God, taking other lovers, thereby defiling themselves.


(Although if one comes to Christ and is washed clean in the blood of the lamb, one would no longer be defiled.)

Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 15 by BusB]

Even taking this dogma as abstractly and non-literal as possible we still end up with a creator God who had to create billions upon billions of humans to only obtain 144,000 holy humans who have not been defiled.

That's a pretty bad track record for any "Creator God".

This would be a God who is extremely inept at creating human souls.

Also, WHO would be responsible for the most holy of humans?

If those humans themselves are responsible for their "holiness" via their own free will choices, then this only proves that humans are the ones who are totally responsible for their own fate.

Therefore, there would be no need for any "sacrificial lamb of God" to be paid as a ransom for the salvation of those who are unholy.

There is also the further contradiction that this supposed sacrificial lamb of God that was paid as a ransom for the salvation of men does not apply to all men, but rather only to those who "EARN IT" even if via a mere acceptance of it.

So this theology is just layers upon layers of unsolvable contradictions.

Humans are simultaneously held totally responsible for their own fate (including their own salvation) whilst simultaneously being denied the ability to even be responsible for their own salvation.

The entire religious paradigm is an oxymoron.

Never mind this trivial contradiction of a supposed 144,000 humans who would have necessarily had to have been responsible for their own holiness. They would have had to have been as sin-free as Jesus supposedly was. Not a single lie coming from their mouths throughout their entire lives. And this alone contradicts the idea that Jesus was the only sin-free person to have ever existed on earth.

So ignoring any literal implications and trying to make totally abstract spiritual interpretations doesn't help this dogma in any case.

[Left Site]

[Replying to Divine Insight]

I believe in erring on the cautious side.

In other words, while I believe that number 144,000 could be literal, I leave room in myself to accept that I may be wrong.

But besides that, that number is shown only to be firstfruits with Christ.

Where there are firstfruits of a harvest there remains the bulk of the harvest to come later.

[tam]

I've read in the bible that many will not enter the gates of Heaven. I was wondering what others think about this statistically speaking. So that's what this poll is for. If you have some verses or ideas backing up your opinion, feel free to give them.

We cannot know, statistically speaking.

The 144 000 (12 000 each from 12 tribes of Israel) are only part of the Bride, who is also made up of a great multitude of people from EVERY tribe, language, nation, people. THAT number is one that NO ONE can count.

After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. Revelation 7:9

Since no one can count the number, how can one project statistics?

**

The Bride (those who have died and those who are yet alive) is gathered up or resurrected to Christ upon His return, taken to heaven (for the marriage - union - between the Bride and the Lamb) and then the Holy City (the New Jerusalem, the Bride) comes down out of heaven so that the Kingdom is established upon the earth. They reign as kings and priests upon the earth, with Christ. (for the thousand years)

You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." Rev 5:10

Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years. Rev 20:6


Then of course there are also the sheep (from the sheep and the goats parable), who are invited into that Kingdom during the thousand year reign (and so invited to the wedding FEAST, CELEBRATION), and also granted eternal life.



Peace to you!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to Divine Insight]

It is not about literal women that it speaks.

2 Corinthians 11:3 "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity and the purity that is toward Christ." (ASV)

Because of how Eve was so easily deceived people like her, regardless of their genitalia, are called women in the NT. Even "silly women."

2 Timothy 3:6 "For of these are they that creep into houses, and take captive silly women laden with sins, led away by divers lusts," (ASV)

Isn't that right JW?

Are you asking me? I saw your point was addressed to someone else. In any case if you would like to know if there is any connection with Paul's words and that of Revelation, I do believe that we can understand that the 144,000 not "defiling themselves with women" is to be taken figuratively, in that they are spiritually pure and dedicated to Christ.

The "busy body" women Paul warned about were literal women, Christian sisters in the first century congregation with a little too much time on their hands, that he was counseling to mind their own business; Eve was also a literal woman, so neither were literally the women referred to in Revelation (Eve was long dead before any of the members of the 144,000 anointed class were even born).


Kudos though for trying to understand Revelation; God blesses those with a spiritual need and a thirst for knowledge.