2 Samuel 24. How can you possibly justify this?

[Justin108]

2 Samuel 24:15

"So the Lord sent a plague through Israel from the morning until the completion of the appointed time. Seventy thousand men died from Dan to Beer Sheba."



So God killed 70 000 men. Why? Because David decided to take a census! Why would God kill 70 000 because David took a census? A census! He counted people!
What could possibly justify this senseless slaughter?

Even if David was in the wrong for taking a census, why punish his people? David is the one that messed up, so in response God kills 70 000 other men? What possible justification is there for this? How was David's actions evil and why were 70 000 other people punished for David's actions?

[Justin108]

Does the time we spend on Earth matter at all to PCE? What exactly is the purpose of our life on Earth? Would David shortening our lives on Earth not affect our purpose somehow?

It allows the redemption of the sinful elect by opening their eyes to their own great sinfulness, allowing them repentance and sanctification.

What about infants who die hours after birth? Did they have enough time to open their eyes to their own great sinfulness?

The sinful elect by living with the reprobate also learn the reprobate will never repent and do not make good family members or friends.

Are all atheists reprobates? Are you saying all atheists are poor friends and family members?

Everyone rebelled for different reasons and are stubbornly committed to those reasons to different degrees.

How can we be stubbornly committed to these different reasons when none of us remember why we rebelled against God?

"I am stubbornly committed to the reason I rebelled against God!...whatever that reason may have been..."

[ttruscott]

Does the time we spend on Earth matter at all to PCE? What exactly is the purpose of our life on Earth? Would David shortening our lives on Earth not affect our purpose somehow?

It allows the redemption of the sinful elect by opening their eyes to their own great sinfulness, allowing them repentance and sanctification.

What about infants who die hours after birth? Did they have enough time to open their eyes to their own great sinfulness?

Having our eyes opened to our sin is a metaphor, right? Psalm 51:6 Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb; you taught me wisdom in that secret place....so of course they have time. PCE contends the person is over 6000 years old and only new to earth. He is a self chosen child of GOD who made a bad decision to not support the judgement day but GOD has promised to redeem him from the consequences of this decision. Time spent as human is meaningless.

The sinful elect by living with the reprobate also learn the reprobate will never repent and do not make good family members or friends.

Are all atheists reprobates? Are you saying all atheists are poor friends and family members?

NO. I was an atheist at one time but believe I am elect. But all sinners sure are. The evil of the sinful elect are the same as the reprobate, evil being just evil but the elect children can be returned from that evil and the reprobate (counterfeit) children cannot. There is no telling who is elect and who is not. This is ordinary Christian thinking.

Orthodoxy considers the problem with evil is that if not restrained it will slowly get worse until it fully overwhelms the person and they become what we picture as Satanic, as per: "A little leaven leavens the whole lump." No one can save themselves from this so those who have permanently rejected GOD's help with their sin are pretty well caught by it.

[Justin108]

Does the time we spend on Earth matter at all to PCE? What exactly is the purpose of our life on Earth? Would David shortening our lives on Earth not affect our purpose somehow?

It allows the redemption of the sinful elect by opening their eyes to their own great sinfulness, allowing them repentance and sanctification.

What about infants who die hours after birth? Did they have enough time to open their eyes to their own great sinfulness?

Having our eyes opened to our sin is a metaphor, right? Psalm 51:6 Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb; you taught me wisdom in that secret place....so of course they have time.

You said people are on earth as it "allows the redemption of the sinful elect by opening their eyes to their own great sinfulness, allowing them repentance and sanctification". If an infant was on earth for only 5 hours, how did he have time to open his eyes on earth? What purpose was there for him to be on earth if he would simply die 5 hours later?

He is a self chosen child of GOD who made a bad decision to not support the judgement day but GOD has promised to redeem him from the consequences of this decision.

By... sending him to earth for 5 hours...?

Time spent as human is meaningless.

Then why did Jesus bother healing the sick? Why did he bring Lazarus back from the dead?

Are all atheists reprobates? Are you saying all atheists are poor friends and family members?

NO. I was an atheist at one time but believe I am elect.

Ok then all atheists who do not later convert to theism? If someone lived and died an atheist, he is a reprobate, right? So all atheists who die as atheists are poor friends and family members?

There is no telling who is elect and who is not.

Yet you consider yourself an elect

[KenRU]

Another baseless assumption

As was your assumption that he was a righteous person. Of course because of your bias to prove God as a monster, I'd expect nothing less. There is nothing in the Bible that says he was a righteous good person. There is only in the Bible that God doesn't judge righteous people to death thus the man gathering wood was not a righteous person.

This seems like a completely irrelevant response to me.

2timothy316,

What does the bible say the punishment is for working on the Sabbath?

-all the best

[2timothy316]

Another baseless assumption

As was your assumption that he was a righteous person. Of course because of your bias to prove God as a monster, I'd expect nothing less. There is nothing in the Bible that says he was a righteous good person. There is only in the Bible that God doesn't judge righteous people to death thus the man gathering wood was not a righteous person.

This seems like a completely irrelevant response to me.

Sure to a person ignorant of the Law and it purpose. (Mr 2:27) The Sabbath was to serve God's people not the other way around. This means the man profaned the law in some way. He wasn't some innocent righteous person that forgot what day it was.

Do you believe Deut 32:4 to be true or not?

If not, then yes, to some every thing I say will be considered irrelevant because they consider the Bible as irrelevant. Of course some will pick out one verse and assume a person was just some helpless innocent victim but then ignore the rest of the Bible that explains that was not so. God doesn't judge righteous people to death along with the wicked. If he could have found at least 10 righteous people in Sodom and Gomorrah then those cities would have been speared. He found 3. They were not killed with the wicked. So my answer is not only relevant it's spot on with the purpose of this forum where the Bible has the authority.

[KenRU]

Another baseless assumption

As was your assumption that he was a righteous person. Of course because of your bias to prove God as a monster, I'd expect nothing less. There is nothing in the Bible that says he was a righteous good person. There is only in the Bible that God doesn't judge righteous people to death thus the man gathering wood was not a righteous person.

This seems like a completely irrelevant response to me.

Sure to a person ignorant of the Law and it purpose.

Do you believe Deut 32:4 to be true or not?

If not then, yes every thing I say will be considered irrelevant because you consider the Bible irrelevant.

Why are you clouding the issue? It is a simple question, queried in good faith.

If Deut 32:4 is used (in your view) as a modifier then there is no punishment for picking up sticks on the Sabbath, just punishment for those all-ready-wicked folk who pick up sticks on the Sabbath. Correct?

Then why the need for the rule?

If I am to believe your qualifier to be the correct way to interpret the rule, the what is the punishment for those not-so-wicked folk who pick up sticks on the sabbath?

-all the best

(you seemed to edit your post after I replied)

[2timothy316]

Another baseless assumption

As was your assumption that he was a righteous person. Of course because of your bias to prove God as a monster, I'd expect nothing less. There is nothing in the Bible that says he was a righteous good person. There is only in the Bible that God doesn't judge righteous people to death thus the man gathering wood was not a righteous person.

This seems like a completely irrelevant response to me.

Sure to a person ignorant of the Law and it purpose.

Do you believe Deut 32:4 to be true or not?

If not then, yes every thing I say will be considered irrelevant because you consider the Bible irrelevant.

Why are you clouding the issue? It is a simple question, queried in good faith.

If Deut 32:4 is used (in your view) as a modifier then there is no punishment for picking up sticks on the Sabbath, just punishment for those all-ready-wicked folk who pick up sticks on the Sabbath. Correct?

Then why the need for the rule?

If I am to believe your qualifier to be the correct way to interpret the rule, the what is the punishment for those not-so-wicked folk who pick up sticks on the sabbath?

-all the best

(you seemed to edit your post after I replied)

Still, before going forward I will need an answer for your opinion if Deut 32:4 is true or not. Because if it is not, then nothing I say is going to matter, it will seem irrelevant to you and I will just be repeating myself.

[ttruscott]

He is a self chosen child of GOD who made a bad decision to not support the judgement day but GOD has promised to redeem him from the consequences of this decision.

By... sending him to earth for 5 hours...?

1. When GOD speaks to you, you listen.

2. We can learn spiritual truth in the womb. Psalm 51:6 Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb; you taught me wisdom in that secret place. OR: But you desire honesty from the womb, teaching me wisdom even there.

I also think about John the baptizer, John 1:15 ... and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born. accepting that he must have been repentant before he was born to get the Holy Spirit before he was born.

Time spent as human is meaningless.

Then why did Jesus bother healing the sick? Why did he bring Lazarus back from the dead?

What can the miracles done to show He was the Messiah have anything to do with the length of our TIME as human?? The rabbit just went down the hole again and I am tired of following.

[ttruscott]

He is a self chosen child of GOD who made a bad decision to not support the judgement day but GOD has promised to redeem him from the consequences of this decision.

By... sending him to earth for 5 hours...?

1. When GOD speaks to you, you listen.

2. We can learn spiritual truth in the womb. Psalm 51:6 Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb; you taught me wisdom in that secret place. OR: But you desire honesty from the womb, teaching me wisdom even there.

I also think about John the baptizer, John 1:15 ... and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born. accepting that he must have been repentant before he was born to get the Holy Spirit before he was born.

3. I also suspicion that a sinner can repent before their conception but since every sinner must die then every sinner, repentant or not, may have to get a physical life so they can have a physical death and the length of that life in minutes days or years from conception is meaningless. That some may only come here to die would take care of all death in the womb.

Time spent as human is meaningless.

Then why did Jesus bother healing the sick? Why did he bring Lazarus back from the dead?

What can the miracles done to show He was the Messiah have anything to do with the length of our TIME as human?? The rabbit just went down the hole again and I am tired of following.

[2timothy316]

Time spent as human is meaningless.

Then why did Jesus bother healing the sick? Why did he bring Lazarus back from the dead?

What can the miracles done to show He was the Messiah have anything to do with the length of our TIME as human?? The rabbit just went down the hole again and I am tired of following.

For those that think there is no future other than their eventual death, I understand why everything seems pointless. After all those that believe the current fate of universe theories in physical cosmology, I'd think everything was pointless too. According to these folks, there is no purpose in life other than what you get for 70 or so years. Displays of hope are useless and thought of as lies. Wow! I'm glad I didn't stay stuck in that state of darkness.