2 Samuel 24. How can you possibly justify this?

[Justin108]

2 Samuel 24:15

"So the Lord sent a plague through Israel from the morning until the completion of the appointed time. Seventy thousand men died from Dan to Beer Sheba."



So God killed 70 000 men. Why? Because David decided to take a census! Why would God kill 70 000 because David took a census? A census! He counted people!
What could possibly justify this senseless slaughter?

Even if David was in the wrong for taking a census, why punish his people? David is the one that messed up, so in response God kills 70 000 other men? What possible justification is there for this? How was David's actions evil and why were 70 000 other people punished for David's actions?

[Elijah John]

Assuming the account is historical, a plague that wipes out 70,000 people may have simply been an unfortunate natural occurance the ancients attributed to God.

I sure don't see any justification, nor do I see any connection of cause and effect. The ancients were somehow able to read into this God's capriious action, but I sure don't.

In their (sometimes) feeble way of thinking, they never seemed to know for sure what would tick God off.

[ttruscott]

So God killed 70 000 men. Why? Because David decided to take a census!

This question contains a complete lack of understanding about why Christians think a person dies. Christian doctrine suggest two reasons: 1. a righteous judgement against the evil of a reprobate OR 2. the end of suffering for a sinful elect because their sanctification process is finished. Either one can be properly brought upon a person of any age.

All sin ends in death but not all death is equal nor proves hostility by GOD. Such narrowness of thought is antagonistic to truth. The fact this may offend a person's sensibilities means not too much at all.

[Justin108]

This question contains a complete lack of understanding about why Christians think a person dies. Christian doctrine suggest two reasons: 1. a righteous judgement against the evil of a reprobate OR 2. the end of suffering for a sinful elect because their sanctification process is finished.

So murder is... a good thing? I mean I'll either be sending an evil reprobate to hell or I'll be finishing a sinful elect's process.

If the death of 70 000 people wasn't such a bad thing, why did David beg God to stop killing everyone?

All sin ends in death but not all death is equal nor proves hostility by GOD.

Let's investigate, shall we?

2 Samuel 24:10 David felt guilty after he had numbered the army. David said to the Lord, “I have sinned greatly by doing this! Now, O Lord, please remove the guilt of your servant, for I have acted very foolishly.�

Here we can see that David messed up and admits that he messed up. He expects punishment for messing up and that's exactly what he got.


2 Samuel 24:12 “Go, tell David, ‘This is what the Lord says: I am offering you three forms of judgment. Pick one of them and I will carry it out against you.’�

13 Gad went to David and told him, “Shall seven years of famine come upon your land? Or shall you flee for three months from your enemy with him in hot pursuit? Or shall there be three days of plague in your land? Now decide what I should tell the one who sent me.�

Clearly, the death of the 70 000 men were meant to be a punishment. This was not some sort of rapture, this was a slaughter of 70 000 men as judgement for the wrong that David has done.


2 Samuel 24:14 David said to Gad, “I am very upset! I prefer that we be attacked by the Lord, for his mercy is great; I do not want to be attacked by men!�

"Attacked by the Lord". How is an attack by God not hostility by God? How can an attack be anything but hostile?

not all death is equal nor proves hostility by GOD.

2 Samuel 24:14 David said to Gad, “I am very upset! I prefer that we be attacked by the Lord"

I rest my case

[2timothy316]

2 Samuel 24:15

"So the Lord sent a plague through Israel from the morning until the completion of the appointed time. Seventy thousand men died from Dan to Beer Sheba."



So God killed 70 000 men. Why? Because David decided to take a census! Why would God kill 70 000 because David took a census? A census! He counted people!
What could possibly justify this senseless slaughter?

Even if David was in the wrong for taking a census, why punish his people? David is the one that messed up, so in response God kills 70 000 other men? What possible justification is there for this? How was David's actions evil and why were 70 000 other people punished for David's actions?

When a census was taken in Israel is was to take count of the men for war. (verse 9) So it wasn't just 'counting people' like we do today. It was more like an unsanctioned draft. To go to war without God's instruction was a serious sin. The people of Israel didn't belong to David to war as he pleased.

As far as the 70,000 that died, we must remember that Jehovah's justice is perfect. There was no righteous person that died in that sickness. God is selective in his judgments. He doesn't sweep away the good with the wicked. (Read Genesis 18:22-33) This is why David left the punishment in God's hands as his people would get more mercy from God than the surrounding nations. The nations wouldn't have cared who died, good or bad, it wouldn't have mattered. However, God takes no pleasure in killing the wicked. (Ezekiel 33:11) He would rather people repent. Jehovah always disciplines “to the proper degree.� (Jer. 30:11) Meaning that these 70,000 people that died were not good upstanding people. They were unrepentant wicked people, serious law breakers, doing only God knows what.

[ttruscott]

This question contains a complete lack of understanding about why Christians think a person dies. Christian doctrine suggest two reasons: 1. a righteous judgement against the evil of a reprobate OR 2. the end of suffering for a sinful elect because their sanctification process is finished.

So murder is... a good thing?

A righteous judgement against the evil is not a murder.

If the death of 70 000 people wasn't such a bad thing, why did David beg God to stop killing everyone?

I'll be sure to ask him when I see him. Judgement is very hard to take, even for the elect which is why we became the sinful elect in rebellion to HIS call for the judgment of the reprobate.

Clearly, the death of the 70 000 men were meant to be a punishment. This was not some sort of rapture, this was a slaughter of 70 000 men as judgement for the wrong that David has done.

Choosing this time for the righteous judgement against the evil of the 70,000 is wrong because...just why? Because it brought home to David the consequences of his sin to all those around him?

"Attacked by the Lord". How is an attack by God not hostility by God? How can an attack be anything but hostile?

It is hostility to sinners, which sinners HE has the right to convict and administer the sentence of death when it is time to do so.

not all death is equal nor proves hostility by GOD.

2 Samuel 24:14 David said to Gad, “I am very upset! I prefer that we be attacked by the Lord"

I rest my case

Go ahead and rest. Please.

Only the NET version uses the word attacked TO INTERPRET the original to fall into the hands of... and then the chicanery is widened by not recording the next phrase "Let us fall now into the hand of the LORD; for his mercies are great!" This does NOT say that he is willing to be attacked by GOD at all but is throwing himself on YHWH's mercy with his sins.

That this case is of the first type I mentioned as a judgment does not prove there are not other cases which I alluded to, 2. the end of suffering for a sinful elect because their sanctification process is finished. So I repeat: all die but not all deaths are equal.

[Justin108]

2 Samuel 24:15

"So the Lord sent a plague through Israel from the morning until the completion of the appointed time. Seventy thousand men died from Dan to Beer Sheba."



So God killed 70 000 men. Why? Because David decided to take a census! Why would God kill 70 000 because David took a census? A census! He counted people!
What could possibly justify this senseless slaughter?

Even if David was in the wrong for taking a census, why punish his people? David is the one that messed up, so in response God kills 70 000 other men? What possible justification is there for this? How was David's actions evil and why were 70 000 other people punished for David's actions?

When a census was taken in Israel is was to take count of the men for war. (verse 9) So it wasn't just 'counting people' like we do today. It was more like an unsanctioned draft. To go to war without God's instruction was a serious sin. The people of Israel didn't belong to David to war as he pleased.

2 Samuel 24 Again the Lord became angry against Israel, and He incited David against them, saying, “Go and count the people of Israel and Judah.�

God told David to count the people! Why would God tell David to do something... and then get mad at David for doing exactly what God commanded??

As far as the 70,000 that died, we must remember that Jehovah's justice is perfect. There was no righteous person that died in that sickness. God is selective in his judgments. He doesn't sweep away the good with the wicked. (Read Genesis 18:22-33)

Good people die all the time

Jehovah always disciplines “to the proper degree.� (Jer. 30:11)

You mean like stoning someone to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?

[Justin108]

Clearly, the death of the 70 000 men were meant to be a punishment. This was not some sort of rapture, this was a slaughter of 70 000 men as judgement for the wrong that David has done.

Choosing this time for the righteous judgement against the evil of the 70,000 is wrong because...just why?

Whether it is wrong or not is besides the point, but to ignore the connection between David's census and the death of these 70 000 men is just dishonest. Either these 70 000 men died because of David's census, or this was just one big coincidence.

Let's take a look at some of the other judgement options David had.

2 Samuel 24:13 Gad went to David and told him, “Shall seven years of famine come upon your land?

Had David chosen the famine instead, do you still think only these 70 000 men would have died? No. Everyone in the nation would have suffered from the famine, regardless of how evil they were. Sure God could have made his 3 day disease only target these 70 000 men, but how would he have done that for the famine? How would God have used the famine to kill only his selection of 70 000 men?

Because it brought home to David the consequences of his sin to all those around him?

Wait so it was David's sin that lead to the deaths of these 70 000 men? You're being inconsistent. What lead to their deaths? David's sin or their own sin?

[2timothy316]

2 Samuel 24:15

"So the Lord sent a plague through Israel from the morning until the completion of the appointed time. Seventy thousand men died from Dan to Beer Sheba."



So God killed 70 000 men. Why? Because David decided to take a census! Why would God kill 70 000 because David took a census? A census! He counted people!
What could possibly justify this senseless slaughter?

Even if David was in the wrong for taking a census, why punish his people? David is the one that messed up, so in response God kills 70 000 other men? What possible justification is there for this? How was David's actions evil and why were 70 000 other people punished for David's actions?

When a census was taken in Israel is was to take count of the men for war. (verse 9) So it wasn't just 'counting people' like we do today. It was more like an unsanctioned draft. To go to war without God's instruction was a serious sin. The people of Israel didn't belong to David to war as he pleased.

2 Samuel 24 Again the Lord became angry against Israel, and He incited David against them, saying, “Go and count the people of Israel and Judah.�

God told David to count the people! Why would God tell David to do something... and then get mad at David for doing exactly what God commanded??

Note another translation, "And the anger of Jehovah addeth to burn against Israel, and an adversary moveth David about them, saying, ‘Go, number Israel and Judah.'" Young's Literal Translation.

Quite a few translations simply translate 'he' or 'it' for 'an adversary'. The NWT uses 'one'. This 'he' is widely understood to be Satan not God. How do we know this? Why translate it as 'one' or 'it'. Because there is another record of the same account in 1 Chronicles 21:1 that says, "And Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel."

So it was not Jehovah that incited David to sin it was Satan.

See this is why it is important not to just be a reader of the Bible but to study it as well. People jump to the wrong conclusions. Even on biblehub.com there is a cross reference section on the right. http://biblehub.com/1_chronicles/21-1.htm and it gives references to other scriptures that shed more light on what you are reading.

As far as the 70,000 that died, we must remember that Jehovah's justice is perfect. There was no righteous person that died in that sickness. God is selective in his judgments. He doesn't sweep away the good with the wicked. (Read Genesis 18:22-33)

Good people die all the time

True, but good people are not judged to death along with the wicked. Abraham asked the same question of God when it came to Sodom and Gomorrah. Abraham feared that righteous people would be killed with the wicked. In the scripture I cited above it shows us that God doesn't do that. Also, your term for 'good person' is not the same for a 'good person' from Jehovah's standpoint. We humans judge people by what we see and hear. Jehovah judges based on the person's heart and will. (1 Samuel 16:7)

Jehovah always disciplines “to the proper degree.� (Jer. 30:11)

You mean like stoning someone to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?

This man was obviously a rebel. Only Jehovah knows what was in that man's heart or what other sins he had committed. Again, you are judging only by what you hear but you do not know what kind of person that man was. The surrounding nations burned their children to death. Could that man have been a foreigner that joined the Hebrews that decided that he was going to gather wood to sacrifice one of his children? Perhaps he was a Hebrew who had turned his attention to Molech worship which is who children were sacrificed to. Who knows! Do not jump to the conclusion that God was in the wrong when the Bible says of Jehovah, 'He is perfect in His activity'. (Deuteronomy 32:4)

[Justin108]

As far as the 70,000 that died, we must remember that Jehovah's justice is perfect. There was no righteous person that died in that sickness. God is selective in his judgments. He doesn't sweep away the good with the wicked. (Read Genesis 18:22-33)

Good people die all the time

True, but good people are not judged to death along with the wicked.

Suppose David chose a 7 year famine over a 3 day disease (2 Samuel 24:13). Would the famine somehow only have effected evil people?

Abraham asked the same question of God when it came to Sodom and Gomorrah. Abraham feared that righteous people would be killed with the wicked. In the scripture I cited above it shows us that God doesn't do that. Also, your term for 'good person' is not the same for a 'good person' from Jehovah's standpoint.

Weren't there children in Sodom and Gomorrah? Are you suggesting that all the children were evil as well?

Jehovah always disciplines “to the proper degree.� (Jer. 30:11)

You mean like stoning someone to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?

This man was obviously a rebel. Only Jehovah knows what was in that man's heart or what other sins he had committed.

If he was sentenced for other reasons, the Bible would have mentioned it. Yet he was killed for gathering sticks. Don't pretend he was secretly evil in other ways the Bible neglected to mention. If the man was guilty of greater evils, I'm assuming the Bible would have mentioned "and so he was stoned for rape/murder/other". Instead, the text states he was killed for gathering sticks. (Numbers 15:32-36)

Again, you are judging only by what you hear but you do not know what kind of person that man was.

What's happening here is you are experience what is known as cognitive dissonance. You personally do not believe that gathering sticks deserve death, yet you also do not want to consider the possibility that the Biblical God is immoral. So instead you make the baseless assumption that "surely this man did some other evil stuff. That's why he was stoned". Please point out where in Numbers 15 is there any mention of this man committing any crime outside of gathering sticks? Everyone who worked on the Sabbath back then were sentenced to death. It was the law. A law given by God himself. So either everyone who has ever worked on the Sabbath is guilty of secret, unmentioned, evil deeds... or God is killing people for working on weekends.

The surrounding nations burned their children to death.

What does that have to do with this man gathering sticks?

Could that man have been a foreigner that joined the Hebrews that decided that he was going to gather wood to sacrifice one of his children?

Baseless assumption. Do you figure that everyone who has ever worked on the Sabbath back then did so to sacrifice children?

Perhaps he was a Hebrew who had turned his attention to Molech worship which is who children were sacrificed to.

Another baseless assumption