Jesus is God

[For_The_Kingdom]

First of all, I never knew that so many suspected "unbelievers" in the Christian religion were so fascinated about whether or not Jesus is God. If you don't believe in Jesus or God, then why do you care? It blows my mind.

Anyway..

I have a Biblically simplistic way of proving that Jesus is God..

Argument from Perfection: The Bible is clear, Jesus was/is without sin (morally perfect). The argument goes like this..

1. Only God is without sin
2. Jesus is without sin
3. Therefore, Jesus is God

#1 is virtually undisputed. #2 is Biblical based on two immediate Scriptures..

a. 2 Corin 5:21 "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him".

b. Heb 4:15 "For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin".

Now, the idea is; if you replace Jesus' name in #2 with ANY other name in Heaven or on Earth, the proposition becomes false and the entire syllogism is false.

The conclusion is simple; in order to be God, you must be without sin..and to be without sin, you must be God. Jesus meets/met those requirements, therefore, Jesus is God.

Argument from John 14:1-9: Long story short, Jesus was constantly preaching/lecturing about "The Father this, The Father that"...until Philip finally said "Lord, show us the Father, and that will be good enough"...and Jesus said, "He who has seen me has seen the Father".

Jesus is saying that seeing him is the same has seeing the Father...but if the Father is on SUCH A HIGH PEDESTAL and is light years ahead of any other entity in Heaven or on Earth, how dare Jesus say "He who has seen me has seen the Father".

In other words, if the Father took on human form and made his dwelling among us on Earth, his form would be Jesus.

If the Father is God, and Jesus said to see him is to see the Father, then Jesus must also be God. This just follows logically.

Argument from Hebrews 1:3: "The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.."

This is the same reasoning applied to Heb 4 (above). If God is the holiest of all holiest, how can any other being come close, must less be the "exact representation" of his being?

How can you be the "exact representation" of someone that is the epitome of holiness/righteousness...unless you yourself is also the epitome of holiness/righteousness?

Actually, you can sum up all three arguments as the "Argument from Perfection"..and of course, there are plenty of other "Trinity proof" Scriptures that I can throw in there, but I wanted to attack this from a different angel.

And lastly, as much as these arguments harmonize, they are all independent...so even if you manage to wiggle your way out of one...you still have to deal with the others.

Actually, there is no way out; Jesus is God, whether we like it or not.

[ttruscott]

Your claiming that both type of bodies are mortal?

Good luck with that.

Your rhetoric has just turned my thesis upside down and backwards and then you have tried to feed that back to me as MY opinion...that is an atheistic trick unworthy of you.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 6 by For_The_Kingdom]

Believers are the evidence for Jesus's legitimacy.

Then you will always be dissatisfied. The only real and trustworthy witness is the indwelling Holy Spirit teaching us how to listen for His voice and even then, if it happens for you, you will find your sinfulness interfering with your understanding of the experience.

[ttruscott]

How will I be convicted based on the evidence that claims that you two have presented?

Well no one is convicted for their lack of understanding because we believe the mentally depressed and the emotionally crippled can indeed be saved in Christ... Salvation is by faith, an UNPROVEN hope, not proof of truth or understanding.

Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

[otseng]

that is an atheistic trick unworthy of you.

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[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 23 by myth-one.com]

The spiritual realm will face the same fate as the physical according to the texts.

What texts?

Physical bodies are described as corruptible, dishonored, weak, and natural in the scriptures..

And spiritual bodies are described as incorruptible, glorified, powerful, and spiritual in the scriptures..

The worst punishment for any spiritual bodied being is everlasting torment as they cannot exit their life through death! Death is impossible for them due to their immortality.

So there is one fate that immortals face which mortals do not face -- that fate is everlasting torment.

Take Satan for example. Satan, or the devil, is the only being which the Bible states will be tormented day and night for ever and ever in the lake of fire!

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:7-10)

The devil cannot be killed because he is a spirit. The fire and brimstone are not for him, but are there to kill humans which shall be cast into hell and suffer their second death. It is the devil who will be tormented day and night for eternity, not the mythical souls or everlasting bodies of nonbelievers!

This cannot be physical torture since the devil's spiritual body does not feel pain. It is the torment of knowing he failed, being defeated, seeing lowly humans being upgraded to take his place, never being given another opportunity, constant eternal boredom, separation from the Kingdom of God, etc. He has rebelled, been defeated, and lost his freedom and authority for eternity.

Christianity has historically been a religion of fear and worry due to the myth of mankind's immortality!

Here is where that myth originated:

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (Genesis 3:4)

Thus, mankind's "immortality" is based on a lie.

==============================================

Now, it appears that you and Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in the immortality of the spirit...well, you can certainly believe what you want, but your belief is not based on Scriptures.

I can't speak for the Jehovah's Witnesses, but I have been proving all along that spiritual bodies are immortal!

I've proved that by quoting scriptures!

[postroad]

[Replying to post 35 by myth-one.com]

So in your opinion something God created he is unable or unwilling to cause to cease existing? That both the heavens and the earth will be destroyed but not the created entities in them?

2 Peter 3:4-10 New International Version (NIV)

4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.� 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.l

Isaiah 24:21-22 New International Version (NIV)

21 In that day the Lord will punish
the powers in the heavens above
and the kings on the earth below.
22 They will be herded together
like prisoners bound in a dungeon;
they will be shut up in prison
and be punished[a] after many days.
Footnotes:

Isaiah 24:22 Or released

Isn't This text indicating the angels?

Psalm 82:5-7 New International Version (NIV)

5 “The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 “I said, ‘You are “gods�;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere mortals;
you will fall like every other ruler.�

[myth-one.com]

Your claiming that both type of bodies are mortal?

Good luck with that.

Your rhetoric has just turned my thesis upside down and backwards and then you have tried to feed that back to me as MY opinion...that is an atheistic trick unworthy of you.

I'm can't speak for the atheists. But most are probably better than I.

I try to support any claims I make by quoting the scriptures.

Sorry you got moderated.

And I was totally not offended by anything you said.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 35 by myth-one.com]
So in your opinion something God created he is unable or unwilling to cause to cease existing? That both the heavens and the earth will be destroyed but not the created entities in them?

God cannot kill or cease to exist anything He created as everlasting. If He did, it will have been a lie to claim it was created for all eternity, and God cannot lie:

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Spiritual bodied beings such as Satan and the angels are examples of beings which He cannot kill. He can punish them by other means -- but not by death.

It is the earth and the atmosphere around the earth which will be destroyed and replaced:

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (Revelation 21:1-2)

[polonius]

First of all, I never knew that so many suspected "unbelievers" in the Christian religion were so fascinated about whether or not Jesus is God. If you don't believe in Jesus or God, then why do you care? It blows my mind.

Anyway..

I have a Biblically simplistic way of proving that Jesus is God..

Argument from Perfection: The Bible is clear, Jesus was/is without sin (morally perfect). The argument goes like this..

1. Only God is without sin
2. Jesus is without sin
3. Therefore, Jesus is God

#1 is virtually undisputed. #2 is Biblical based on two immediate Scriptures..

a. 2 Corin 5:21 "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him".

b. Heb 4:15 "For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin".

Now, the idea is; if you replace Jesus' name in #2 with ANY other name in Heaven or on Earth, the proposition becomes false and the entire syllogism is false.

The conclusion is simple; in order to be God, you must be without sin..and to be without sin, you must be God. Jesus meets/met those requirements, therefore, Jesus is God.

Argument from John 14:1-9: Long story short, Jesus was constantly preaching/lecturing about "The Father this, The Father that"...until Philip finally said "Lord, show us the Father, and that will be good enough"...and Jesus said, "He who has seen me has seen the Father".

Jesus is saying that seeing him is the same has seeing the Father...but if the Father is on SUCH A HIGH PEDESTAL and is light years ahead of any other entity in Heaven or on Earth, how dare Jesus say "He who has seen me has seen the Father".

In other words, if the Father took on human form and made his dwelling among us on Earth, his form would be Jesus.

If the Father is God, and Jesus said to see him is to see the Father, then Jesus must also be God. This just follows logically.

Argument from Hebrews 1:3: "The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.."

This is the same reasoning applied to Heb 4 (above). If God is the holiest of all holiest, how can any other being come close, must less be the "exact representation" of his being?

How can you be the "exact representation" of someone that is the epitome of holiness/righteousness...unless you yourself is also the epitome of holiness/righteousness?

Actually, you can sum up all three arguments as the "Argument from Perfection"..and of course, there are plenty of other "Trinity proof" Scriptures that I can throw in there, but I wanted to attack this from a different angel.

And lastly, as much as these arguments harmonize, they are all independent...so even if you manage to wiggle your way out of one...you still have to deal with the others.

Actually, there is no way out; Jesus is God, whether we like it or not.

RESPONSE: Unless, of course, the New Testament is flawed.

Was Jesus born during the reign of King Herod who died in 4 B.C. (Matthew), or born during the Judean census under Quirinius in 6 A.D. (Luke)?

Following Jesus' birth, did he and his parents travel to and settle in Galilee , or travel to Egypt?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_and_rationality

Broadly speaking, there are two categories of views regarding the relationship between faith and rationality:

1. Rationalism holds that truth should be determined by reason and factual analysis, rather than faith, dogma, tradition or religious teaching.

2. Fideism holds that faith is necessary, and that beliefs may be held without any evidence or reason and even in conflict with evidence and reason.

The Catholic Church also has taught that true faith and correct reason can and must work together, and, viewed properly, can never be in conflict with one another, as both have their origin in God, as stated in the Papal encyclical letter issued by Pope John Paul II, Fides et ratio ("[On] Faith and Reason").

But the Catholic Church cannot explain this and other scriptural contradictions (one of element of which must be false);)

[ttruscott]

Take Satan for example. Satan, or the devil, is the only being which the Bible states will be tormented day and night for ever and ever in the lake of fire!

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:7-10)

Umm, Matt 25:41 Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. says the goats, the people on the left, ie, Satan's angels, will end in the lake of fire also...