Jesus is God

[For_The_Kingdom]

First of all, I never knew that so many suspected "unbelievers" in the Christian religion were so fascinated about whether or not Jesus is God. If you don't believe in Jesus or God, then why do you care? It blows my mind.

Anyway..

I have a Biblically simplistic way of proving that Jesus is God..

Argument from Perfection: The Bible is clear, Jesus was/is without sin (morally perfect). The argument goes like this..

1. Only God is without sin
2. Jesus is without sin
3. Therefore, Jesus is God

#1 is virtually undisputed. #2 is Biblical based on two immediate Scriptures..

a. 2 Corin 5:21 "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him".

b. Heb 4:15 "For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin".

Now, the idea is; if you replace Jesus' name in #2 with ANY other name in Heaven or on Earth, the proposition becomes false and the entire syllogism is false.

The conclusion is simple; in order to be God, you must be without sin..and to be without sin, you must be God. Jesus meets/met those requirements, therefore, Jesus is God.

Argument from John 14:1-9: Long story short, Jesus was constantly preaching/lecturing about "The Father this, The Father that"...until Philip finally said "Lord, show us the Father, and that will be good enough"...and Jesus said, "He who has seen me has seen the Father".

Jesus is saying that seeing him is the same has seeing the Father...but if the Father is on SUCH A HIGH PEDESTAL and is light years ahead of any other entity in Heaven or on Earth, how dare Jesus say "He who has seen me has seen the Father".

In other words, if the Father took on human form and made his dwelling among us on Earth, his form would be Jesus.

If the Father is God, and Jesus said to see him is to see the Father, then Jesus must also be God. This just follows logically.

Argument from Hebrews 1:3: "The Son is the radiance of Gods glory and the exact representation of his being.."

This is the same reasoning applied to Heb 4 (above). If God is the holiest of all holiest, how can any other being come close, must less be the "exact representation" of his being?

How can you be the "exact representation" of someone that is the epitome of holiness/righteousness...unless you yourself is also the epitome of holiness/righteousness?

Actually, you can sum up all three arguments as the "Argument from Perfection"..and of course, there are plenty of other "Trinity proof" Scriptures that I can throw in there, but I wanted to attack this from a different angel.

And lastly, as much as these arguments harmonize, they are all independent...so even if you manage to wiggle your way out of one...you still have to deal with the others.

Actually, there is no way out; Jesus is God, whether we like it or not.

[myth-one.com]

You have quoted the New World Translation, a Bible that was written to match the teachings of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Since they did not believe that Jesus was God Incarnate, they had to alter that verse.
.
This is how the verse from Hebrews really reads:

But there is a place where someone has testified: "What is mankind that you are mindful of them, a son of man that you care for him? You made them a little lower than the angels; you crowned them with glory and honor and put everything under their feet." In putting everything under them, God left nothing that is not subject to them. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to them. But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

You claim that it is wrong to state that Jesus was a man, and not God.

Then you say "we see Jesus who was made lower than the angels for a little while, . .. "

That's a contradiction -- as beings made lower than the angels is the definition of man!

So he was a little lower than the angels only for the brief time he was on earth as God Incarnate.

Yes, He was a man for about 33 years.

If Jesus was God, then He could not fulfill His mission, and we would have no Savior!

Actually, the exact opposite is true. In the Old Testament, people sacrificed animals to cover their sins. Those sacrifices had to be made over and over and over because the sacrifices didn't remove their sins. Note that a sacrificial lamb was to be unblemished (Ex. 12:5).

Only a man could die and atone for the sins of humankind, but all men are sinners. The only sacrifice that was acceptable to God was a man without sin. But since all men are sinners, that means none of us could do the job. The only way a man could be unblemished, that is, sin-free is for him to be also God. That's why it's imperative that Jesus was BOTH man AND God. Otherwise, he could not have died in our place and atoned for our sins.

Once the Word agreed to be made flesh as the man Jesus Christ, He had no choice but to die:

And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Hebrews 9:27)

Every man and woman ever born will die once, as a consequence of being born into the human physical world. So it is not Jesus' death which saves us. None of us are spared our first death.

The verses you have quoted re: the resurrection refers to just that -- our resurrected bodies. Those bodies are called spiritual bodies, meaning that they are glorified bodies that will never grow old, get sick or perish.

Those bodies are called "spiritual bodies" because they are spiritual bodies:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

We are born with spirits dead in sin. Christ brings them alive (called regeneration or being born again) when we accept his gift of salvation.

We are born as physical bodied humans having no preeminence over any other animal.

For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

They are also appointed once to die.

But unlike them, we can gain everlasting spiritual life by choosing to be born again of the Spirit at the Second Coming:

And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me... (Revelation 22:12)

[postroad]

[Replying to post 21 by myth-one.com]


I thought they claimed to be born of God when they received the baptism of the Spirit?

Also he never came quickly or at all.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 17 by myth-one.com]
If both have a beginning how is it that you claim the spiritual can't be destroyed?

The spiritual was created by God to be everlasting. And God has always existed.

And no, I can't understand or explain everlasting or always.

I thought they claimed to be born of God when they received the baptism of the Spirit?

That's what most Christians and Christian churches teach.

Also he never came quickly or at all.

My calculations indicate He will return in the year 2042. But I'm no scholar.

[For_The_Kingdom]

Jesus is God
Point Blank, PERIOD

The Word is a spiritual bodied being in the Kingdom of God. Consequently, the Word cannot die -- being immortal.

Physical death is when your spirit leaves your body...Jesus' spirit left his body...therefore, Jesus' body was dead. That says nothing about the immortality of his spirit, and Biblically speaking, when your physical body dies, your spirit lives on.

1. God is immortal.
2. Jesus died on the cross.
3. Therefore, Jesus was not God.

God's physical body CAN die, if God chooses to have his spirit leave his physical body. Now, it appears that you and Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in the immortality of the spirit...well, you can certainly believe what you want, but your belief is not based on Scriptures.

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

If Jesus was God, then He could not fulfill His mission, and we would have no Savior!

How do you resolve that logical problem?

I don't see a problem.

[For_The_Kingdom]

Believers are the evidence for Jesus's legitimacy. I find myself fascinated that they can't even agree on the nature of his being but can agree that nonbelievers are reprobate.

I don't know anyone of whom I agree with 100% on any and everything. Do you?

Interesting as I imagine claiming to be a representative of Christ and spreading false belief seems to be a worse offence than being skeptical of the whole thing because believers can't give a non conflicting testimony?

I repeat; I don't know of anyone of whom I agree with 100% on any and everything. Do you?

Your testimony regarding the nature of Christ cancels out the testimony of brisnbbs and his cancelles out yours.

You think so? I think my explanation/interpretation is better than his.

How will I be convicted based on the evidence that claims that you two have presented?

Go by whichever explanation makes more sense in light of the Scriptures that we have in front of us.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 23 by myth-one.com]

The spiritual realm will face the same fate as the physical according to the texts.

2 Peter 3:5-13 New International Version (NIV)

5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by Gods word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.[a]

11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 25 by For_The_Kingdom]

I thought the truth was Spiritually discerned? How is it that Christianity gets to claim the title of new covenant and the Holy Spirit but doesn't display any supernatural evidence that would testify to the truth of that claim?

Everything I'm witnessing is common to all humanity and its institutions and nothing more.

[jgh7]

[Replying to post 1 by For_The_Kingdom]

It seems as though debates on the Trinity have always gone down to dissecting the ancient Greek grammar. This is typically where non-Trinitarians make their arguments from.

After reading Revelation I do more firmly believe that Jesus is God.

Revelation 1:7
I am the Alpha and the Omega, [d]the Beginning and the End, says the [e]Lord, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

------

When Jesus is in His true form, this is how He speaks. I believe He is God.

But I confess the Trinity is still a mystery to me. The Father is the God of Jesus, but yet they are both the one and the same God? The best I can think of it is that God takes on multiple expressions or representations as Hebrews 1:3 put it. He expresses Himself as the Son and the Father and the Holy Spirit to accomplish different goals.

But it's still beyond me to really understand this and I feel like I'm guessing a lot on how the triune nature of the Trinity is all still 1 God. How do you make sense of it?

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 9 by ttruscott]

A disposable body can sanctify an eternal soul?

I don't answer disposable, ie, irrelevant, questions ...

[ttruscott]

Where did Jesus say "I am God"? If he did make the claim indirectly, why so coy about it? Why not just come out with it if Jesus was, indeed, God?

1.
IF as many contend

IF there is a war going on between YHWH trying to sanctify HIS sinful church (in part, against their will) and

IF it were proven that Jesus was GOD and

IF it was proven that for every Christian that was sanctified the world was one step closer to the judgement day,

THEN would not a practical strategy of those condemned already to kill anyone they thought might be a Christian in infancy BEFORE they can be sanctified? With the war out in the open, the trouble of their becoming sanctified would be vastly increased.

Therefore it is an obvious strategy to keep them guessing about the claims of the Christians and able to deny their truth while the sinful elect easily learn the truth easily in the spirit.

2.
On the other hand, it is written in Romans 1 that GOD did give the whole of creation (everybody under heaven) the clear proof of HIS deity and power so that none has an excuse for not repenting their sin yet mankind has repressed that proof because they loves sin more...

so why bother with another claim with no proof that will probably be scorned and become the cause of further abuse? Would His outright claim have caused anything but abuse?

It would not separate those who claim to hear HIS voice and to follow HIM from those who really do, eh?