Do you have the hope of going to heaven

[JehovahsWitness]

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I do not have a hope of going to heaven (when I speak of "heaven" I mean the spiritual abode/realm where God lives).

- Do you personally entertain the hope of going to heaven to spend eternity with God when you die? (if this question is too personal I respect if you do not want to share this information)

- If so, do you believe such a literal spiritual realm exists?

- Do you believe that Jesus is presently in heaven where God exists?



* My question is for people that do believe that a God exists, since I presume that those that do not believe in God do believe he exists anywhere and therefore there is no "heaven" where God is.

[Joe1950]

The only demons that have ever approached me were the false prophets going door to door trying to force their strange religious beliefs down my throat.

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A little touchy, aren't we. While it was ok for one of your Christian friends to claim that people who meditate, like me, are actually opening ourselves up to being possessed by DEMONS, it is A-OK. And when that same person says the following:

"That is an extremely fine thing, that you haven't been approached by demons. Many people have been, and they are fooled into thinking that they have communicated with good angels or even Christ or God Himself. The good spirit persons of the heavenly realm do not speak to humans today. Demons do on many occasions. "
It is not offensive? To suggest that people are fooled by demons? How do I know whether those people at my door trying to get me to convert are NOT demons? One of your Christian friends suggests that some of those people may be DEMONS in disguise. And I agree with her. Those people at my door MAY be demons in disguise.

If they are demons I do not care if they are offended. If they are true Christians they will not be offended by my concern.
In other words. My statement stands. If we are going to talk about sneaky demons I have every right to consider the possibility that there are FALSE PROPHETS at my door. Nothing in my statement would insult a true believer...only a false prophet who may be exposed!

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 291 by onewithhim]

Many people have been, and they are fooled into thinking that they have communicated with good angels or even Christ or God Himself. The good spirit persons of the heavenly realm do not speak to humans today.

There's someone on this site, I'm sure you've heard of her, who insists that she is indeed in communication with Christ. Perhaps you should share this with her.
Saying this to me is meaningless, since I'm not convinced that the demons and whatnot you mention here even exist.

we are barking up the wrong tree. We are not spirit beings residing in a physical body. There is no such thing as a separate personage, fully conscious on its own, that lives within us and leaves the physical body at death. The spirit that returns to God is His own power, so to speak, that kept that person alive. It's not a person.

I have no evidence that what you say is true, versus what other people say. I can talk to all manner of people, and get all manner of responses about this topic. Some of them will say we ARE spirit beings in a physical body, some will agree with you, others will say something else.
I have no idea which of the lot of you are saying the truth (if any of you are at all).

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 295 by onewithhim]

What on earth is "strange" about what they teach?

While no-one has ever knocked on my door preaching a religion (just doesn't happen here in the Land of Saints and Scholars), imagining for a moment if some JWs did...the strangeness in what they teach is that nothing they teach is backed up by empirical evidence.
It's all 'backed up' by assuming the Bible to be a communication from God, and even worse, using a highly controversial translation at that. What they teach are that important JW figures of years past spoke what they say are prophecies...that conveniently can't be shown to be untrue. Oh, Jesus Christ was supposed to be rule on Earth in 1914? Convenient then that after 1914 came and went with no divine monarchy being established, that the Watchtower started saying that the prophecy was about Jesus assuming authority in heaven.
Just as convenient as Muslims who say that the original manuscript for the Quran was taken up into heaven, so that we have no way of checking if what we have today matches what Gabriel supposedly dictated to God's last prophet.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 299 by Joe1950]

So, in what sense, if not religious, do you use the word "spiritual"?

That's such a great question.

I have been trying to figure that out.

It's very much like the homosexual men using the word "gay".

Appropriation of a common word.


SO .. in my case, the word "spiritual" means the complex of ideas and emotions that have to do with a kind of now feeling.. a connection to the what is happening.

Sort of like Taoism.

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 286 by Claire Evans]

They can be considered delusional but it is not a far out concept to be able to communicate with the spiritual world through prayer. People meditate.

Meditation is a method to remove yourself from the three-dimensional world and initiate communication with the high realms of Heaven of in the Spirit World. The purpose of meditation is to discover our true selves " a spiritual being residing in a physical body; and experience true happiness by feeling free from the restrictions of this physical world."

Many who meditate claim to have spirit guides and it could lead to demonic possession.

I meditate all the time and nothing like what you describe has ever happened to me.

First of all, there are those who meditate to specifically summon up their spirit guide. There have been known cases of people becoming demonically possessed by practising meditation. Remember it is an occult based practice. Clearly not all become demonically possessed but there is a risk.

If Santa was also considered God incarnate/Son of God, then it could be plausible.

...so all that needs to be done for the Santa story to be considered plausible in your mind...is that someone needs to say they consider him to be God incarnate/Son of God?
Is that right? That's all that needs to be done? Just...make a claim? No evidence needs to be shown that he actually IS God incarnate?

No, there would have to be case which can be examined to deduce if it is plausible. However, if one can say Santa is a supernatural being then, hypothetically, it could make sense. However, there are no such claims and no premises to go on.

The Father did not drown the world, for starters.

That's what it says in the Old Testament.

That's what pagan stories say. The gods called the flood in the Sumerian story.

Do we have historical documents arguing the case for the existence of a supernatural Santa? For example, was he accused of witchcraft like Jesus was? Are there 5000 pieces of documents recording the life of Santa? We can analyse the claims by the writers of the gospels by taking apart the gospel narrative in the process of elimination. Truly you don't believe Jesus and Santa are in the same league?

What you don't seem to understand is that thousands of anecdotes don't turn into data. The plural of anecdote is not data.
Thousands of pages about a proposed supernatural being do not suddenly mean that the supernatural being must exist.
Neither BC nor myself are impressed by the existence of thousands of pages talking about this proposed being. All that is evidence for...is the existence of the pages themselves.

Has it been proven that there are merely all anecdotes? Many atheists have examined the resurrection story and have come to the conclusion that the resurrection is the only thing that can be deduced based on the facts.

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2015/03/03 ... verything/

https://scottsauls.com/2014/11/harvard- ... christian/

Can you honestly say that non believers of Santa Claus could examine the story and come to believe it?

Nothing more, nothing less.
When it comes to Jesus and Santa, I do consider them in the same league. They are both proposed supernatural beings, with supernatural abilities or powers, said to be able to do things far beyond us mere humans. The fact that one has more pages devoted to him does not render that one more 'likely' to exist.
Consider this hypothetical. What if one day we found ten thousand pages (so double the number you say) from a thousand years ago detailing the life of the Last Son of Krypton? Who is able to leap tall buildings in a single bound and has heat vision?
According to the logic you espouse, we would have to consider the Last Son of Krypton to be real, because after all...we have all these pages. Never mind that all we have is text, we don't have his bones or any other physical artifacts, or anything at all to suggest that heat vision is even plausible...we have the pages. We have the text.
Someone took the time to write it down God damn it and just why isn't that enough for us arrogant atheists?

We have no historical verification that the Last Son of Krypton existed. Secular sources very much acknowledge the crucifixion of Jesus and the empty tomb. So if we have no premise to work on, then we cannot be expected to believe the claims of the Last Son of Krypton. Do you believe Alexander didn't exist? The history of Alexander is drawn from five ancient sources written 300 or more years after he died. Not one eyewitness account of Alexander exists. Yet we believe the claims because of the impact Alexander had on history, like Jesus, and archaeology.

I just don't think it is an excuse for an atheist to just dismiss the resurrection story as a fantasy without doing detective-type investigative work. The problem with many atheists who were formally Christian is that they most likely have confirmation bias. An atheists who never was Christian will investigate in a neutral manner.

[Claire Evans]

The only demons that have ever approached me were the false prophets going door to door trying to force their strange religious beliefs down my throat.

Moderator Warning


Your post here is highly offensive to Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons and other "door to door" evangelists. Calling any human being who is not truly evil a "demon" is highly inflammatory.

Please refrain.




Please review our Rules.

______________

Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

A little touchy, aren't we. While it was ok for one of your Christian friends to claim that people who meditate, like me, are actually opening ourselves up to being possessed by DEMONS, it is A-OK. And when that same person says the following:

"That is an extremely fine thing, that you haven't been approached by demons. Many people have been, and they are fooled into thinking that they have communicated with good angels or even Christ or God Himself. The good spirit persons of the heavenly realm do not speak to humans today. Demons do on many occasions. "
It is not offensive? To suggest that people are fooled by demons? How do I know whether those people at my door trying to get me to convert are NOT demons? One of your Christian friends suggests that some of those people may be DEMONS in disguise. And I agree with her. Those people at my door MAY be demons in disguise.

If they are demons I do not care if they are offended. If they are true Christians they will not be offended by my concern.
In other words. My statement stands. If we are going to talk about sneaky demons I have every right to consider the possibility that there are FALSE PROPHETS at my door. Nothing in my statement would insult a true believer...only a false prophet who may be exposed!

Since this is referring to me, I'll respond.

I never said those who meditate are devil worshipers whereas you are claiming that Jehovah's Witnesses are demons.

What I am saying is that who dabble in occult practices like meditation are at risk of demonic possession because that is the point of New Agers: to get into contact with their spirit guides. Although this is not the motive for the average meditator, they are potentially opening a door.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 305 by Claire Evans]

There have been known cases of people becoming demonically possessed by practising meditation.

What you classify as 'known' is not what I would classify as 'known'.

Remember it is an occult based practice.

And the practices of mainstream Christianity are not? What about the ritualistic God-eating?

Clearly not all become demonically possessed but there is a risk.

A risk I am not convinced exists.

No, there would have to be case which can be examined to deduce if it is plausible. However, if one can say Santa is a supernatural being then, hypothetically, it could make sense. However, there are no such claims and no premises to go on.

A case that can be examined? What exactly does this mean? On the surface, this statement would exclude Jesus Christ then from being plausible.

That's what pagan stories say. The gods called the flood in the Sumerian story.

Again, that isn't what is said in the Old Testament. Read the OT and it mentions a singular God, who floods the planet. Continue reading the Bible and we eventually learn this God is the same God as the one talked about in the New.

Has it been proven that there are merely all anecdotes? Many atheists have examined the resurrection story and have come to the conclusion that the resurrection is the only thing that can be deduced based on the facts.

Lee Strobel? A name I've heard before.
" I realized it would take more faith to maintain my atheism than become a Christian."
Wow. That totally smacks of a scientific based investigation /sarcmarc.
I'd really like to know how one investigates the Jesus Christ story, comes to the supposedly empty tomb, and then, based purely on scientific research, comes to the conclusion that Jesus coming back to life and leaving is the BEST answer for why the tomb is empty.
Here's an excerpt of a review from Amazon UK
. To his credit, I don't think Strobel actually says in this book that he ever set out to present all of the arguments, but rather to show a convincing case in favour of his own newly developed belief. But that's the problem, and why this book should never be recommended to anybody who flat out doesn't believe, because they'll just cling further to those beliefs because of reading it. Strobel interviews some very impressive figures here, but he never presents the other side. He asks them probing questions, where these intellects tear apart their detractors, but he never looks at the arguments of the people with other opinions. Everybody here shares the exact same opinions, and they're presented in such a way to tell us that these are the "only" legitimate opinions, that the opposing arguments are all contradictory and full of holes, and the whole book is framed in such a way to make these theories seem as convincing as possible. Detractors are either atheists, clutching at straws and refusing to accept what's obvious, or they're "liberal" Christians, changing things to suit their agenda. If this was legitimately looking to explore Christianity from a neutral point-of-view, and to show the facts and let the reader make up their own minds, it would have allowed for some of the detractors who were so brutally torn apart to offer their counter-arguments, and it wouldn't have been written in such a way to convince us of the author's beliefs. As such, any knowledgeable atheist, or "liberal Christian", could easily tear this apart and ridicule it... and they do exactly that. Just type "The Case for Christ rebuttal" into Google and you'll be presented with countless examples.

Like I said, if you want to believe that Jesus is the son of God, then you'll accept every word in here. If, however, you genuinely want to learn and understand, then I would highly recommend that you read this book, take notes, and compare it side-by-side with some of the excellent rebuttal websites. Of course, those sites are trying to make Strobel look just as silly as his interviewees tried to make their detractors look, so exercise caution and use your own judgement and common sense. Alternatively, if you're already convinced that Jesus isn't the son of God, you might want to read this because it's about as entertaining and readable an insight into the beliefs and arguments of Christian apologists as you're likely to find. Me? I learnt a lot from reading this and comparing Strobel's words to those of his online adversaries. For one thing, I now feel pretty confident that Jesus was actually a historical figure, and that is pretty much beyond reasonable doubt. I've also learnt that Christian beliefs can, indeed, stand up to scrutiny and logic. But it's a shame that many atheists won't get that impression from this book, as its own biases serve to de-legitimise it.
When I read other reviews, I hear that Strobel doesn't talk to a single scholar who isn't an evangelical Christian. So...he's clearly got a bias.
What about this review?
"I read this as an atheist keen to find out what the case for christ was and the historicity of christ

The author only interviewed christian apologists (with long lists of credentials) and there is no balance or genuine attempt to investigate, to the author it's a done deal.

The case itself is entirely based on the authority of the bible, if you're sceptical of the bible, there is no case for Christ."

Or this one?
"The Case For Christ is a biased, one-sided presentation by a Christian minister. Strobel only interviewed believing Christian experts; most were professors at seminaries and schools of theology and two were also pastors. It is not surprising they believe in the accuracy of the Gospels and the divinity of Jesus. He interviewed no scholars with opposing views like Sanders, Mack, or Fredriksen. Although Strobel raised issues and problems he readily accepted any explanation given. An analogy would be a court trial where only one attorney presents his case and calls only his expert witnesses to the stand. How could a jury reach a fair and truthful verdict under these circumstances?

Wow...after all that, it looks like Lee Strobel is not someone I should be reading. An atheist journalist with a law background...who writes a book that is supposedly about an honest investigation into Jesus's resurrection that is VERY one sided?

As for the second thing you link to...

This theme"of love as sacrifice for true good"struck me. The Cross no longer seemed a grotesque symbol of divine sadism, but a remarkable act of love. And Christianity began to look less strangely mythical and more cosmically beautiful. At the same time, I had begun to read through the Bible and was confronted by my sin. I was painfully arrogant and prone to fits of rage. I was unforgiving and unwaveringly selfish. I passed sexual boundaries that Id promised I wouldnt. The fact that I had failed to adhere to my own ethical standards filled me with deep regret. Yet I could do nothing to right these wrongs. The Cross no longer looked merely like a symbol of love, but like the answer to an incurable needbut beauty and need do not make something true. I longed for the Bible to be true, but the intellectual evidence was still insufficient.

(emphasis mine)
Yeah. That's all I need to strike this person off my list. I cannot and will not trust what this person writes about Christianity because they admit to an emotional need for it to be true.
This then taints any and all research they conduct.

Do you honestly have any idea of how to conduct investigations?

[Joe1950]

The only demons that have ever approached me were the false prophets going door to door trying to force their strange religious beliefs down my throat.

Moderator Warning


Your post here is highly offensive to Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons and other "door to door" evangelists. Calling any human being who is not truly evil a "demon" is highly inflammatory.

Please refrain.




Please review our Rules.

______________

Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

A little touchy, aren't we. While it was ok for one of your Christian friends to claim that people who meditate, like me, are actually opening ourselves up to being possessed by DEMONS, it is A-OK. And when that same person says the following:

"That is an extremely fine thing, that you haven't been approached by demons. Many people have been, and they are fooled into thinking that they have communicated with good angels or even Christ or God Himself. The good spirit persons of the heavenly realm do not speak to humans today. Demons do on many occasions. "
It is not offensive? To suggest that people are fooled by demons? How do I know whether those people at my door trying to get me to convert are NOT demons? One of your Christian friends suggests that some of those people may be DEMONS in disguise. And I agree with her. Those people at my door MAY be demons in disguise.

If they are demons I do not care if they are offended. If they are true Christians they will not be offended by my concern.
In other words. My statement stands. If we are going to talk about sneaky demons I have every right to consider the possibility that there are FALSE PROPHETS at my door. Nothing in my statement would insult a true believer...only a false prophet who may be exposed!

Since this is referring to me, I'll respond.

I never said those who meditate are devil worshipers whereas you are claiming that Jehovah's Witnesses are demons.

What I am saying is that who dabble in occult practices like meditation are at risk of demonic possession because that is the point of New Agers: to get into contact with their spirit guides. Although this is not the motive for the average meditator, they are potentially opening a door.

Where have I ever referred to Jehovah Witnesses as devil worshipers? Please show me the quote and the post #. I have no problem being criticized for what I actually say. However, I do have a problem when others decide to interpret my actual words to fit an agenda.
Since I know demons do not exist the comments about possible "demonic possession" by those who meditate do not bother me. (Although I do see how others who meditate might be offended by being told they are opening themselves up to demons)
Your post warns us of "false" Christians (or posing as Christians) who may be demonic in nature. I simply pointed out that those who show up at my door COULD be false Christians, could they not?
I presume the moderator, like you, decided to interpret my words to mean more than I said. I mentioned no religion or group by name. I have no desire to argue with you about the issue but I would simply ask you to please not read into my statements more than what is there.

[Joe1950]

[Replying to post 305 by Claire Evans]

To what extent is Santa Claus a god?
Well, let us look at the evidence. I would suggest that many religions would consider the following to be characteristics of a god.
Omniscient. Able to defy the laws of physics. Open to prayer and supplication by humans. Able to bestow gifts, spiritual and physical. Eternal. Recognized in literature and the arts as a superior being.
All of these traits are seen in god, Jesus and Santa
I will make the case for Santa, based on what we know from the literature.
Omniscient: He knows if you are good or bad. He knows when you are sleeping. He knows when you are awake. He sees everything you do.
Laws of Physics. Santa is able to fly through the air and make reindeer do the same. He visit millions, perhaps billions of homes in one night. He is able to enter through chimneys. Just as Jesus walked on water to defy the laws of physics. And turned water into wine. So Santa defies the laws of physics.
Open to supplication. People pray to god for help. Millions, if not billions ask Santa for favors. They do this in person (to Santa surrogates) or in writing. They may do so in their evening prayers as well. They ask for favors in public and in private. They write to Santa and put their desires on paper. Sometimes Santa gives them what they want, sometimes he does not. Like any other god.
Eternal. Santa has been around a long time. Much longer than the lifetime of a mortal man. He shows no signs of aging or slowing down. In fact, over time, his presence has gotten stronger and stronger. Like any god there seems to be no end to his life.
Recognized in literature and art. There are plenty of icons of Santa. His image displayed in abundance. He is easily recognized. There is much literature written about him. Poems, songs, plays, movies. All carry the same theme.He loves mankind and offers gifts to mankind. He is able to do things well beyond what humans can do. It is well documented. In google alone there are over 101,000,000 references to Santa.
There are other traits and qualities normally associated with gods (having human helpers, having the ability to make plenty of material things from a small original amount).
Santa certainly possesses plenty of the qualities many religious people associate with god. And, like other gods, some dismiss him out of hand for some reason instead of embracing his goodness.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 298 by Joe1950]

That would save them from drowning in the flood and preserve the authenticity of the Biblical account.

Funny thing about fish:

Hard to DROWN them in water.