2 Samuel 24. How can you possibly justify this?

[Justin108]

2 Samuel 24:15

"So the Lord sent a plague through Israel from the morning until the completion of the appointed time. Seventy thousand men died from Dan to Beer Sheba."



So God killed 70 000 men. Why? Because David decided to take a census! Why would God kill 70 000 because David took a census? A census! He counted people!
What could possibly justify this senseless slaughter?

Even if David was in the wrong for taking a census, why punish his people? David is the one that messed up, so in response God kills 70 000 other men? What possible justification is there for this? How was David's actions evil and why were 70 000 other people punished for David's actions?

[KenRU]

Another baseless assumption

As was your assumption that he was a righteous person. Of course because of your bias to prove God as a monster, I'd expect nothing less. There is nothing in the Bible that says he was a righteous good person. There is only in the Bible that God doesn't judge righteous people to death thus the man gathering wood was not a righteous person.

This seems like a completely irrelevant response to me.

Sure to a person ignorant of the Law and it purpose.

Do you believe Deut 32:4 to be true or not?

If not then, yes every thing I say will be considered irrelevant because you consider the Bible irrelevant.

Why are you clouding the issue? It is a simple question, queried in good faith.

If Deut 32:4 is used (in your view) as a modifier then there is no punishment for picking up sticks on the Sabbath, just punishment for those all-ready-wicked folk who pick up sticks on the Sabbath. Correct?

Then why the need for the rule?

If I am to believe your qualifier to be the correct way to interpret the rule, the what is the punishment for those not-so-wicked folk who pick up sticks on the sabbath?

-all the best

(you seemed to edit your post after I replied)

Still, before going forward I will need an answer for your opinion if Deut 32:4 is true or not. Because if it is not, then nothing I say is going to matter, it will seem irrelevant to you and I will just be repeating myself.

Why don't you let me be the judge of what matters to me or what I think is relevant? I promise to provide you with the same courtesy.

I am not asking a trick question.

-What is the punishment (according to the bible) for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?

If qualifiers (Deut 32:4) are necessary to make sense of this, and for you to consider when answering, I provide the following:

-If the punishment ascribed (death) is only for those already wicked (as you argue), then why even make the rule, and not just punish those for their wickedness in the first place?

-What is the punishment for those not-so-wicked who pick up sticks on the Sabbath?

All the best

[KenRU]

Time spent as human is meaningless.

Then why did Jesus bother healing the sick? Why did he bring Lazarus back from the dead?

What can the miracles done to show He was the Messiah have anything to do with the length of our TIME as human?? The rabbit just went down the hole again and I am tired of following.

For those that think there is no future other than their eventual death, I understand why everything seems pointless. After all those that believe the current fate of universe theories in physical cosmology, I'd think everything was pointless too. According to these folks, there is no purpose in life other than what you get for 70 or so years. Displays of hope are useless and thought of as lies. Wow! I'm glad I didn't stay stuck in that state of darkness.

I certainly don't think there is anything waiting for me after death, and yet I also do not think that life is pointless, nor do I think hope is pointless.

So, you are in error if you think atheism results in that kind of thinking.

Perhaps it would be best to ask instead of assuming?

Just a thought,

-all the best

[2timothy316]

Time spent as human is meaningless.

Then why did Jesus bother healing the sick? Why did he bring Lazarus back from the dead?

What can the miracles done to show He was the Messiah have anything to do with the length of our TIME as human?? The rabbit just went down the hole again and I am tired of following.

For those that think there is no future other than their eventual death, I understand why everything seems pointless. After all those that believe the current fate of universe theories in physical cosmology, I'd think everything was pointless too. According to these folks, there is no purpose in life other than what you get for 70 or so years. Displays of hope are useless and thought of as lies. Wow! I'm glad I didn't stay stuck in that state of darkness.

I certainly don't think there is anything waiting for me after death, and yet I also do not think that life is pointless, nor do I think hope is pointless.

So, you are in error if you think atheism results in that kind of thinking.

Perhaps it would be best to ask instead of assuming?

Just a thought,

-all the best

And if I was talking about you then your reply would mean something.

BTW I used to be an atheist, so don't think I don't know what I'm talking about. I remember long talks with other atheist how pointless the Bible and religion was. Meanwhile I was satisfied with living my life and then dying. Then, I wasn't.

[2timothy316]

Why don't you let me be the judge of what matters to me or what I think is relevant?

Nope. That is not how debate works in this forum. This is the TDD forum not the CA forum. In here people should have already excepted the Bible as authoritative. If you do not then there is nothing you have to debate about.

Since you like being the judge. Judge Deut 32:4 as true or false and stop avoiding the question or stop asking for answers from people that use the Bible as a primary source in their answers. There is a whole other forum for non-biblical discussion. This is not that forum.

[KenRU]

Time spent as human is meaningless.

Then why did Jesus bother healing the sick? Why did he bring Lazarus back from the dead?

What can the miracles done to show He was the Messiah have anything to do with the length of our TIME as human?? The rabbit just went down the hole again and I am tired of following.

For those that think there is no future other than their eventual death, I understand why everything seems pointless. After all those that believe the current fate of universe theories in physical cosmology, I'd think everything was pointless too. According to these folks, there is no purpose in life other than what you get for 70 or so years. Displays of hope are useless and thought of as lies. Wow! I'm glad I didn't stay stuck in that state of darkness.

I certainly don't think there is anything waiting for me after death, and yet I also do not think that life is pointless, nor do I think hope is pointless.

So, you are in error if you think atheism results in that kind of thinking.

Perhaps it would be best to ask instead of assuming?

Just a thought,

-all the best

And if I was talking about you then your reply would mean something.

Well, then, my apologies for thinking you were referring to someone who doesn't believe in a life after death when you said: "For those that think there is no future other than their eventual death ..."

What was I thinking?

BTW I used to be an atheist, so don't think I don't know what I'm talking about.

I never thought you didn't know what you were talking about. I'm honestly baffled by the terseness of your responses. I offered no such incivility to you.

And, since you think such responses are relevant, I was a Catholic for many years prior to becoming an atheist.

Does that mean I know what I am talking about to you?

I remember long talks with other atheist how pointless the Bible and religion was. Meanwhile I was satisfied with living my life and then dying. Then, I wasn't.

Good for you. I'm happy that you're "satisfied". Religion never offered me such satisfaction.


-all the best,

[KenRU]

Why don't you let me be the judge of what matters to me or what I think is relevant?

Nope. That is not how debate works in this forum. This is the TDD forum not the CA forum. In here people should have already excepted the Bible as authoritative. If you do not then there is nothing you have to debate about.

Sounds to me like the OP doesn't remotely fall into this category, and perhaps your problem is with the OP? And not the questions that are relevant to it?

Since you like being the judge.

Where did I say that? Please, do show me where I ever said that - or anything like it?

Or recant.

Judge Deut 32:4 as true or false and stop avoiding the question or stop asking for answers from people that use the Bible as a primary source in their answers. There is a whole other forum for non-biblical discussion. This is not that forum.

My question directly relates to the OP.

You avoided my question first.

Why should I stop expecting answers to RELEVANT (to the OP) questions from people that use the bible as a primary source?

My question is biblical in nature and directly relates to the OP.

-all the best

[2timothy316]

I remember long talks with other atheist how pointless the Bible and religion was. Meanwhile I was satisfied with living my life and then dying. Then, I wasn't.

Good for you. I'm happy that you're "satisfied". Religion never offered me such satisfaction.

-all the best,

It's not religion that has satisfied me. Nor do I think that is the purpose of religion. I remember setting with my fellow atheist buds laughing at people as weak for looking to a religion for satisfaction. Turns out, that while it was cruel for me to do such a thing, I wasn't completely wrong. Romans 1:25 says, "They exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the Creator, who is praised forever. Amen." Some want their thinking done for them. They prefer the lie to truth. I used to be no different.

It's the study of the Bible that has given me not only sanctification but hope and joy. The search for real truth and not just what someone hands me. Nothing has given me more truth than the study of God's word the Bible set together with my knowledge of the natural world and my fellow truth seekers. So, yes, if all you did was 'render service' to a religion and the people in that religion for your faith, of course it failed. Faith in men always fails. Though you have abandoned the men in Catholic religion, all you have done is traded one set of men for another. The result will be the same. Whether it be your trust in men of science or just yourself, the result will be the same.

[2timothy316]

Why don't you let me be the judge of what matters to me or what I think is relevant?

Nope. That is not how debate works in this forum. This is the TDD forum not the CA forum. In here people should have already excepted the Bible as authoritative. If you do not then there is nothing you have to debate about.

Sounds to me like the OP doesn't remotely fall into this category, and perhaps your problem is with the OP? And not the questions that are relevant to it?

And perhaps your problem is that answers are coming from a source you don't wish to accept. Again, this is not the forum for your discussion. As far as the OP, it was asked in a forum where the Bible is held as having the final say. What else would be expected in a forum that the purpose of the forum is for "debates on Christian theology with the basic assumption that the Bible can be used as a primary reference without the need to defend its authority." You're trying to have a debate without having to accept the purpose of this forum. viewtopic.php?t=3168

[KenRU]

I remember long talks with other atheist how pointless the Bible and religion was. Meanwhile I was satisfied with living my life and then dying. Then, I wasn't.

Good for you. I'm happy that you're "satisfied". Religion never offered me such satisfaction.

-all the best,

It's not religion that has satisfied me. Nor do I think that is the purpose of religion.

Religion is the practice (and learning) of one's faith.

I remember setting with my fellow atheist buds laughing at people as weak for looking to a religion for satisfaction. Turns out, that while it was cruel for me to do such a thing, I wasn't completely wrong. Romans 1:25 says, "They exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the Creator, who is praised forever. Amen." Some want their thinking done for them. They prefer the lie to truth. I used to be no different.

Ironic, isn't it, how we came to exactly the same conclusions (about who wants their thinking done for them), and yet I determined atheism was the truth, and religion/god, the lie.

Seems to me that those of faith are having their thinking done for them.

It's the study of the Bible that has given me not only sanctification but hope and joy. The search for real truth and not just what someone hands me.

Which I will argue is done when you are handed a bible.

Nothing has given me more truth than the study of God's word the Bible set together with my knowledge of the natural world and my fellow truth seekers. So, yes, if all you did was 'render service' to a religion and the people in that religion for your faith, of course it failed.

And if I tell you I did not just "render service"?

Faith in men always fails. Though you have abandoned the men in Catholic religion, all you have done is traded one set of men for another. The result will be the same.

Funny, the Catholics could say the same about your religion. Oddly, they don't. The Catholics I know are much more open-minded about those of other faiths.

Hmm. I wonder what that tells us?

Whether it be your trust in men of science or just yourself, the result will be the same.

That is true for everyone. even you, whether you admit it or not.

I'd still love a response to my questions, if you could find it in you to do so : )

-All the best

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 49 by KenRU]
So we are done with 2 Samuel 24 then? Because your questions do not belong in this debate forum. Link to the purpose of this forum. viewtopic.php?t=3168 You will read that in this forum the Bible is already accepted as having authority. If you do not accept this, then I have nothing more to contribute.

If you have a question about Theology, Doctrine and Dogma then go ahead. Questions about what I think is true and why beyond the Bible are irrelevant. The only thing that must be agreed upon in this forum is that the Bible has the final say. If you don't accept that, then head back to the CA forum.