What purpose would a system of government have in heaven?

[Justin108]

What purpose would a system of government have when God is both omnipotent and omniscient? Why would an omnipotent God need to delegate in order to effectively rule? Can you perhaps give a few examples of what these rulers would be tasked to do? What purpose would rulers have in a paradise society? There is no economy to take care of, no resource distribution, no justice system as all members at this point will be free of sin... what is left for the rulers to do?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 25 by Justin108]

Why would removing the need for food be an improvement? Isn't eating a pleasurable experience? What are your favorite foods? Do you enjoy them? Why would you not want to have them to enjoy?

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[Justin108]

[Replying to post 25 by Justin108]

Why would removing the need for food be an improvement? Isn't eating a pleasurable experience? What are your favorite foods? Do you enjoy them? Why would you not want to have them to enjoy?

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I never said we should remove the act of eating, merely the need to eat. Eating should be like dancing; something you do for fun but not something you need to do.

[Justin108]

What purpose would a system of government have when God is both omnipotent and omniscient?

The purpose of the government, as with all governments, is to establish and enforce an administeration to maintain order in a new world system. While God is both omnipotent and omnicient by nature, this doesn't stop him choosing to delegate if that be his pleasure.

So you can't give me an actual rational reason other than "because God wants to"? In case this was not obvious from my OP, I want to know why God would want to?

JW just told you why.

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Yes and his why comes down to "because God wants to". God can effectively rule without assigning tasks to 144 000 people. So why do it? JW's answer comes down to "because God wants to" and something to the effect of making the 144 000 feel special.

[JehovahsWitness]

JW's answer comes down to "because God wants to" and something to the effect of making the 144 000 feel special.

Yes, the government (of Jesus + 144,000 other individuals) this is how God wants to express his sovereignty for the time being. Is He not allowed to do what he wants? What about you? are YOU free to do as you like, if so why would God not have the same freedom as you do?

JW's answer comes down to ... the effect of making the 144 000 feel special.

No doubt being chosen to be a member of government does make them feel special indeed the bible does say that they are "a special possession" but that would be a bi-product of his choice rather than the reason. Since God is love he finds a way to make all of his servants, including myself, to feel special, so that of itself is not the reason why he has extended the privilege of ruling with Jesus to some rather than rule directly himself for a time.

Here is the post you are refering to
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 619#878619


JW

[RightReason]

[Replying to Justin108]

Justin108, I admire your patience. And you have done a splendid job of pointing out the problems with their paradise earth notion. One of the things I find most problematic is their pictures depict old and young living together with the explanation that the old will grow younger and the young will reach adulthood. So, basically those pictures are false advertising. What the pictures should show is a planet full of 20 and younger.

And they tell us there will be sex. Since there will be no jealousy or envy in paradise will we all just have sex with whomever whenever we want? And I have been told women will still have babies. So if I enjoy paradise earth and have as much sex as I like, will I be pregnant every 9 months? Because that is how the human body works in its perfected state. God created our fertility and a healthy 20 year old is a fertile 20 year old. So, basically on this utopia earth all the women are pregnant and there will be lots and lots of babies. And let me guess, these babies will sleep thru the night and not cry when they are tired, or hungry, or wet?

I noticed when reading the JW tracts that were posted they seem to all repeat the same thing in regards to their idea of paradise earth " that this paradise earth will do away with the corrupt politics we endure now. And isnt that what this is really about? Their Watchtower tracts read more like a new Communist Manifesto. Check it out:

While this government has been operating since 1914, full powers will not be extended regarding the planet earth, until it takes complete control, overthrowing all current governments. The bible calls of this change of system as "Armageddon".


There will be millions maybe billions of people living in their territory (the entire planet earth) that will need adequate food, clothing and housing, fulfilling work, a good clean environment in which to raise their families. Ensuring this is available for millions of people without exception with complete equality for all would be impossible without some kind of administration (thus "The Kingdom").


There will also be the need for ongoing education as to the rule of law, in short there will be a need for each member of society to fully understand the "justice system" (the rules by which the new human society operate and any consequences of breaking those rules). This is in fact a inseperable from the need for spiritual guidance since all true justice comes from God, and this new society will be based on how God sees things.


There will of course the need for a good health plan.

We have a new government and the Queen of England is either dead or (hopefully for her) just unemployed. Same goes for every ruler and government and President you can name. No new planet but because there will be a new (competent: read perfect) government, things will at long long LONG last start moving in the right direction.

Spoken like yet another group trying to get your support.


Sounds like they are promising people their idea of helping the masses. Their tracts even include that headline: Do they tend to the needs of the masses?

All of this definitely sounds like something dreamed up to give people hope from existing faulty governments. After their failed prophesies about end times could no longer persuade people to join their ranks (as they kept proving to be false), they went a different route and began publishing colorful brochures promising a paradise earth. And IMO failing to understand heaven is soooooo much more than their notion of some perfected form of government. They continue to miss the point that a bushel of ripe fruit and frolicking with the animals will not be what human beings need for fulfillment. What we desire is to be with our Father in heaven. Just being in the presence of beauty, and love, and truth will be our fulfillment.

[JehovahsWitness]

So you can't give me an actual rational reason other than "because God wants to"?

Why doe God want to express his sovereignty for a period of time through individuals brought from from earth instead of rule directly himself?

Below are some reasons:

# As has been highlighted (see post #2 above), although God is capable of ruling directly, he knows that working with and through people gives them joy and immense pleasure so one reason would be because he loves them and is generous not adverse to delegation.

# For Jesus (the principal member of this government) it is also a fitting reward for succesfully fulfilling his commission to give his human life as a ransom. Siimilarly, the co-rulers (other government members) have proven to be loyal until death and have been offered privilege as a reward.

# Another reason is that their assgnment will be to oversee humans, using individuals who were formerly residents on the earth means they will bring to the job a level of understanding of life as a human man or woman, that angels for example could not possibly have. Jesus himself is spoken of as "learning" from his experiences on earth, so they are all well placed to help mankind with human problems and challenges.

To illustrate: How often do the people lament that their rulers don't know what it is like to live as a normal working class person? When rulers come from privilege and cannot relate to the everyday struggles of ordinary working class people both loyalty and efficiency is tested. It is a very compassionate thing for God to choose both men and women, people from all backgrounds to be part of his "ruling class" who have collectively lived the lives of those they will be governing.

# Related to this is there is a type of poetic justice, that the humans play a role in the regulating of mankind's problems; a human (Adam) was essentially the start of the problem, how fitting that humans should be allowed to play a role in the solution.




JW


RELATED POSTS

What will those ruling in the government (144,000) actually DO?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 622#878622

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 46 by JehovahsWitness]

One more example of the problematic way JWs have of looking at the hereafter. Here we see once again this appeal, almost as if God were a candidate running for office and it is the JW job to sell us on Him.

To illustrate: How often do the people lament that their rulers don't know what it is like to live as a normal working class person? When rulers come from privilege and cannot relate to the everyday struggles of ordinary working class people both loyalty and efficiency is tested. It is a very compassionate thing for God to choose both men and women, people from all backgrounds to be part of his "ruling class" who have collectively lived the lives of those they will be governing.

All I see in comments like the above and one below are those who are too hung up on this material world and cannot imagine a better way " a supernatural way. Their notion of heaven still seems to be limited to not seeing beyond the earthly world as we know it. I also would like to know what problems and challenges will there be in heaven? Isnt the point, that we shall no longer have any?

Another reason is that their assgnment will be to oversee humans, using individuals who were formerly residents on the earth means they will bring to the job a level of understanding of life as a human man or woman, that angels for example could not possibly have. Jesus himself is spoken of as "learning" from his experiences on earth, so the are all well placed to help mankind with human problems and challenges.

[JehovahsWitness]

how many do you suppose will end up living on earth? Then there's the matter of reproduction. Will people still reproduce in paradise?

Will paradise not eventually become overpopulated?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 237#832237

How long will it take to "fill the earth"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 240#832240

Do we need to worry God cannot handle the potential problem of over population? (2timothy316)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 273#832273

QUESTION: Will contraceptives be available while living in paradise?

These kinds of questions are not answered directly in scripture. That said logic dictates that if, even today imperfect humans have devised methods of contraception (that do not violate the sanctity of life) and that allow a healthy woman to have sex and not conceive a child if that is her wish, then in the new world, this will also be possible.

Actually a woman is only furtile for specific periods in a month, so simple planning and a measure of self control for limited periods in the month may well be 100% sure in a perfectly regulated human body. In any case while the bible doesn't say what methods will be available it is not beyond the realms of reason that contraception (whether entirely new or based on already existed inventions) will continue to be an option for women in the new system should that be their choice.

QUESTION: Will everybody be having sex with everybody else in paradise?

The bible is very clear on God's standards as to sexual activity. Sex is a privilege to be uniquely enjoyed between a man and his (one) wife. Jesus repeated this mandate when on earth and strongly indicated that this was a divine standard that was not to be violated. The bible holds numerous examples of God destroying those that indulged in sexual immorality and says explicitly that the sexually immoral will NOT inherit the kingdom (see 1 Cor 6:9). The bible speaks about the knowledge of Jehovah covering the whole earth in this new world, so we can conclude that the legal and moral basis for life under God's government will hold to such high standards with regard to sexual activity. Those that suggest that perfection will amount to a sexual free-for-all do so in opposition to the explicit statements in scripture.

There is nothing in scripture that indicate poligamy, fornication, orgies and/or sexual immorally will have ANY place when Jesus is ruling as king!

[Benoni]

The Bible does speak of God's elect which are not all christian that is why they are His elect. The reason for the elect is not to play harps and eat grapes in the bye and bye. The elect will become Kings and Priest in the age to come to call all those people to include dead physically people who are now spirit though out the ages to include all heathens Back to God.

Mt Zion is one of the factors for this is where king David lived and where the Tabernacle of David was brought to during the reign of David. This is God's glory in the OT is an example of God's glory in the ages to come.

Notice: Obadiah 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion (the high places of Ruleship in the kingdom) to judge the mount of Esau (Flesh); and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.

Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouths)
It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.

[JehovahsWitness]

The reason for the elect is not to play harps and eat grapes in the bye and bye. The elect will become Kings and Priest in the age to come

Thank you for our comment, I do agree with the part of your comment above. I think the harps in Revelation are symbolic as instruments of praise and harmony.

REVELATION 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

JW