Is Hell and Those Who Will Go There Eternal?

barney · Post by **barney** » Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:29 pm

Shalom,

In Mark 9:43-44, et al, we find Scriptures spoken by Jesus Himself, of an ETERNAL HELL, and the LOST who will enter it, in direct reference to a condition where THEIR (personal pronoun) WORM dieth not. While, the thoughts of an Eternal Hell to many of today's Biblical Scholars and Theologians is rapidly becoming 'politically incorrect', the Word of God begs to differ with them nonetheless.

Mark 9:43 (KJV)
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:44 (KJV)
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

To this end, the premise of this article is NOT to prove an Eternal HELL, which is self evident from simple Scriptural understanding, but rather to shed light on the Eternal WORN that will exist in this unimaginable place of Eternal Punishment.

It takes a greater work of Scriptural gymnastics hammered on the anvil of disbelief to DISPROVE an Eternal Hell, then the Child like FAITH to accept God's sovereign omnipotent WISDOM and authority.

Many have speculated that these aforementioned WORMS are nothing more than some sort of demonic creatures that will devour the flesh of the damned and doomed mankind during their temporal destruction in the eternal and infernal place of Torment. Meanwhile, it is equally presumed that the Lake of Fire is only designed for Satan, his 1/3 Fallen Cohorts, the man AC, and the False Prophet.

However, this is not at all what Scripture reveals, the Bible states that the Righteous will view the 'carcasses' of those who have transgressed against God in a place where the fire is unquenched and THEIR (personal pronoun) WORN shall NEVER die.

Isaiah 66:24 (KJV)
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

To this end then, WHO are these WORMS that shall NEVER DIE which Jesus reveals in Mk. 9:44, et al?

The following Scriptures makes it perfectly clear by direct language SYMBOLIZING who these ETERNAL WORMS are most likely to be, even Jacob himself was addressed by the Lord as a WORM.

Job 25:6 (KJV)
6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

Psalms 22:6 (KJV)
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

Isaiah 41:14 (KJV)
14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

What then can easily be deduced from the above supposition, is that MAN is symbolized by a WORM and respecting Mk. 9:43-44 spoken directly by Jesus Himself, cited above, is referring to the LOST without HOPE in CHRIST.

Therefore, with direct respect to the ETERNAL FLAME, Matt. 25:41 does NOT imply exclusivity with relationship to those who will be deposited into 'Everlasting' Fire.

Matthew 25:41 (KJV)
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Nowhere in the above Passage is the word ONLY implied with respect to Satan and his Angels... simply PREPARED (made ready). Moreover, this Passage declares that those who have been judged unworthy from among the nations (those on the left hand) will ALSO be cast into the Everlasting Fire.

Meanwhile, Rev.19:20 reveals that the Beast and the False Prophet will be deposited there as well. The Beast and the False Prophet are NOT once mentioned in Matt. 25:41, in exception to exclusivity...for ONLY Satan and his Angels.

Also, Rev. 20:14-15 reveals that subsequent to the Great White Throne Judgment of the DEAD (Second Death) will be deposited in the Everlasting Lake of Fire as well.

To reiterate, in Mk. 9:43-48 Jesus is indeed referring back to the Isaiah prophecy of 66:23-24.

Meanwhile, with respect to the WORM that DIETH NOT. Therefore, if it can shown where something that will NEVER DIE (even Christians are addressed in Scripture relevant to this SAME language - Jn. 11:26, et al.) is indeed NOT INFINITE or Eternal, then you have my undivided attention as well as a realistic defense for your concern, otherwise...

To this end, the KEY to understanding this prophecy is quite simple...those DEAD BODIES who will be in the (their) FIRE that is NOT QUENCED (Eternal Hell) are all those who have transgressed against the LORD:

Isaiah 66:23-24 (KJV)
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Therefore, Jesus WARNS the grammatical antecedents ETERNAL WORM(s) - those transgressing against the LORD - of Mk. 43, 45 and 47, NOT to go to the place of ETERNAL HELL where THEIR Worm Dies NOT.

As such, the antecedent possessive personal pronoun THEIR with respect to the LXX (greek Septuagint), referring to the CARCASES/DEAD BODIES, is in EXACT agreement with Isaiah 66:24 (the Worm that shall NOT DIE - CARCASE) and the ETERNAL WORM that Jesus revealed in Mk. 44, 47, and 48.

"...In this sentence, the greek (in the septuagint, it is presumably the personal pronoun) their refers back to what? The answer is "carcasses" ("dead bodies")."

Moreover, the POSSESSOR of the ETERNAL WORM (Dead Body) is what is 'Spiritually' INSIDE of the Dead Body/Eternal Worm. To this end, when in Job 25:6, Psalms 22:6, and Isaiah 41:14 when God calls man a WORM He was referring to the 'physical body'. However, with respect to natural man there is ALSO a Soul/Spirit that dwells within the 'temporal' WORM.

Meanwhile, it is duely noted that WORMS eat decaying matter, i.e. dead bodies. However, the ETERNAL WORMS that BELONG (Ownership) to those who have transgressed against the LORD, per Scripture, are NOT 'external' consuming worms separate of the carcase, but rather the DEAD BODIES/CARCASES themselves, that will NEVER Die.

Therefore, if the WORM/DEAD BODY is ETERNAL, then so must its HOST OWNER (THEIR) that 'dwells within' be as well. If the OWNER (Spirit/Soul inside of the ETERNAL WORM) was to vanish away, then Eternal Hell would have Eternal Worms/DEAD BODIES with NO OWNERS. Nonetheless, below is what/where these ETERNAL WORMS will originate from - the DEAD BODIES that will NEVER DIE.

Dan. 12:2, Jn. 5:28-29 and Rev. 20:5 makes if perfectly clear that there will be a Resurrection of the DEAD in Sin (the Resurrection of the Damned).

John 5:28 (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Seeing therefore, that the former Carcases of these Damned and Dead resurrected individuals have long since been consumed by other parasites that are/were NOT ETERNAL (natural), then God has/will prepared (created) a NEW BODY for these doomed TRANSGRESSORS as well. Rev. 20:11-15, reveals that the DEAD will come out of their graves (see Jn. 5:28-29 above) and their resurrected DEAD BODIES (newly created - ETERNAL WORMS) will STAND before God to be Judged for THEIR transgressing against the LORD.

Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV)
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

barney

barney · Post by **barney** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:20 am

Shalom myth-one,

You have repeatedly declared that ALL Sinners who are raised in the 2nd. Resurrection will have MORTAL/NATURAL Human Bodies.

Likewise, you have also declared that those NATURAL Bodied SINNERS who go to the Lake of Fire will DIE QUICKLY and be rendered UNCONSCIOUS for ALL ETERNITY.

"...the wages of sin is death. If they are humans, they die quickly when cast into the lake of fire. When death occurs, they lose all consciousness for all eternity:"

However, this is not at all what Rev. 14:10-11 declares...these below cited Scriptures reveal that those SINNERS who worship the Beast and receive his mark and name will be TORMENTED with FIRE and BRIMSTONE for EVER and EVER - and they will have NO REST day or night.

Revelation 14:10-11 (KJV)
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

To this end, if these risen SINNERS are TORMENTED FOREVER with fire and brimestone - how will your suggested NATURAL resurrected Human Bodies endure this?

Meanwhile, if these Resurrected SINNERS equally have NO REST day nor night FOREVER, then how can you claim that they will NOT be Conscious for all ETERNITY?

I really do not think that you competely Scripturally understand some of the things you actually claim...you simply proclaim a vast quantity of IMO's, that are completely in abrasive contradiction to God's WORD.

barney

myth-one.com · Post by **myth-one.com** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:16 pm

barney wrote:. . . if what you suggest is indeed true, that Resurrected Sinners will have a MORTAL Human Body - then once again, please explain how the FALSE PROPHET will have endured 1,000 years in the Lake of Fire, before Satan ever joins him? (Rev. 19:20, 20:2 and 20:10)

Revelation 19:20 wrote:And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The beast and the false prophet were both cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

I think we both agree that the beast and false prophet were humans. This is supported by the scripture indicating they were "alive" when cast into the fire. Had they been spirits, there is no cause to indicate that they were alive -- as they cannot become dead.

Since they were human, they both died quickly in the lake.

Revelation 20:10 wrote:And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The devil was cast into the same lake of fire and brimstone as the beast and false prophet. And he will be tormented there for ever and ever.

If someone asked me where Noah, John, Paul, Luke, and Mary Yates are; my response would be that they are in the Forest Park East Cemetery at 21620 Gulf Freeway in Webster, Texas.

This usage in Revelation 20:10 of the word are is the same.
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Barney wrote:Revelation 14:10-11 reveals that those who worship the Beast and his image, and whosoever receives his mark or name, will be tormented DAY and NIGHT for EVER and EVER, as well.

Revelation 14 wrote:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Please don't get upset, but it actually does not state that anyone will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Verse 10 states that worshipers of the Beast and his image "will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb."

That is, they will be cast into the same lake of fire as the beast and perish in their second death:

Revelation 21:8 wrote:But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

They will be tormented for a very brief period.

Verse 11 identifies the "smoke of their torment" as lasting forever.

Their torment was the fire and brimstone. The fire and brimstone lasts forever because the devil will be imprisoned there forever. Since the fire and brimstone lasts forever, the smoke rises forever also.

My apology for falling behind in responding. Hope to catch up.

kayky · Post by **kayky** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:45 pm

I am a Christian, but I do not believe in hell. It is a horrendous notion, and I would not worship a God who came up with such a place.

barney · Post by **barney** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:25 pm

Shalom myth-one,

Thank you for responding.

When you are willing to go as far as telling me that Rev. 14:9-11 has NOTHING to do with those SINNERS, who will in the future, receive the name and mark of the Beast, that they will NOT be TORMENTED day and night - without REST - for EVER and EVER - and boldy declare that their TORMENT will only last BRIEFLY -

They will be tormented for a very brief period.

You then have proven to me beyond any doubt, that you are willing to compromise and manipulate the clear meaning and context, of stated Scripture, to ANY DEGREE, in order to authenticate your misguided IMO's.

Revelation 14:9-11 (KJV)
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

It is at this point I will humbly hereby rest my defense - you have lost ALL of your theological credibility with me henceforth.

THANK YOU for your kind and patient correspondences...

barney

myth-one.com · Post by **myth-one.com** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:42 pm

barney wrote:
Revelation 14:9-11 (KJV)
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

For the wages of sin is death; . . . (Romans 6:23)

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing... (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

Those suffering the second death do not even know what rest is!

They do not know what day is!

They do not know what night is!

They will have no rest, nor day, nor night, nor anything else for ever and ever because they are dead!

God places the answers to man's every question in a book which is brilliantly sealed from man's understanding! Satan immediately sets man off on the totally wrong path when he instills in man the concept that, "Ye shall not surely die."

This initial false belief that man is born as an immortal soul living within a physical body seals the remainder of the Bible from man's understanding. The Bible clearly states that man is mortal and will die. Immortal spiritual life is repeatedly defined as a gift, inheritance, or reward in the Bible -- not a birthright of all mankind.

The remainder of the Bible must then be incorrectly "interpreted" to support this original error of man's immortality.

With a little assistance from Satan, man effectively seals the scriptures from his own understanding!

So a religion predicated on love and grace becomes a religion of fear, worry, terror, and unhappiness.

God prophesied that the Church would fail.

So we should not be surprised.

Kayky wrote:I am a Christian, but I do not believe in hell. It is a horrendous notion, and I would not worship a God who came up with such a place.

The horrendous notion is that any being might spend eternity suffering conscious horrendous physical pain in hellfire!

The true purpose of hell is a place of never ending restraint for Satan. It is Satan who will be tormented day and night for eternity, not the mythical souls of nonbelievers! This cannot be physical torture since the devil's spiritual body does not feel pain. It is the torment of knowing he failed, being defeated, seeing lowly humans being upgraded to take his place, never being given another opportunity, separation from the Kingdom of God, etc. He has rebelled, been defeated, and lost his freedom and authority for all eternity.

If even one human suffers eternally in hellfire, then God is not love.

You don't worship such a God, Kayky!

I'm a Christian, and I do not worship or know of such a God either.

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (John 8:32)

We're free!

myth-one.com · Post by **myth-one.com** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:48 pm

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (I Corinthians 15:22)

All humans who ever lived will be made alive again, or resurrected. All includes both believers and nonbelievers! However, all will not be resurrected at the same time. There will be an order to the resurrections:

But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:23)

So Jesus will be resurrected first, and that has already occurred. The resurrection which we presently await is the one at which "they that are Christ's" will be resurrected. "They that are Christ's" refers to Christians. This resurrection for all Christians occurs at the Second Coming of Jesus to the earth, or "at his coming."

John 6:40 wrote:And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Second Coming is described in Revelation chapter nineteen:

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (Revelation 19:11-13)

The Word of God became flesh as Jesus and dwelt among us. So this is His Second Coming.

The first resurrection for mankind is described only a few verses later:

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Revelation 20:4-5)

All dead Christians are resurrected at this first mass resurrection -- "they that are Christ's". Christians who are alive on the earth when Jesus returns will be born again as spirits and meet Him in the air:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)

At this point after the first resurrection, all mankind who died as Christians along with Christians who were alive at the Second Coming have been born again as spiritual beings. They will now enjoy the millennium Sabbath with Jesus:

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)

The second resurrection for man occurs after the millennium:

Revelation 20:5 wrote:But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

Christianity divides mankind into two groups -- believers and nonbelievers. There are two resurrections for mankind and all believers were resurrected in the first resurrection. Therefore, all remaining to be resurrected are nonbelievers.

Likewise, the Bible defines only two type of beings: natural and spiritual:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

Only spiritual bodies live forever. Speaking of those who shall be born again into the Kingdom of God, Jesus states:

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. (Luke 20:36)

Angels are spiritual beings with spiritual "bodies." They have to be as members of the Kingdom of God, because flesh and blood natural cannot enter the Kingdom of God:

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;... (I Corinthians 15:49-50)

Thus, Christians (dead and alive) at the Second coming will be changed from natural to spiritual beings instantly:

Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (I Corinthians 15:51-52)

But nonbelievers are not promised everlasting life. They perish:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Although all nonbelievers are resurrected at the second resurrection, they are not resurrected to everlasting life:

Matthew 25:46 wrote:And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The punishment for sin is death:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

One of two groups remains to be resurrected, they will not be resurrected as spiritual beings because the penalty of death could not be implemented.

So they must be resurrected as natural bodied humans! This is also confirmed back in the Old Testament:

Daniel 12:2 wrote:And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Here is a description of the second resurrection:

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-15)

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Note that after the judgment of nonbelievers resurrected in the second resurrection, whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Be aware that absolutely none of those resurrected at the second mass resurrection had their names written in the book of life when resurrected! Every single human, dead or alive, with their names written in the book of life were born again as spirits at the first resurrection!

So why are they checking the book again? Something obviously occurred since these nonbelievers were resurrected to cause the book of life to be modified. Otherwise, there would be no reason to check the book again for their names.

The next question should be "What happened?"

pneuma · Post by **pneuma** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:43 pm

kayky wrote:I am a Christian, but I do not believe in hell. It is a horrendous notion, and I would not worship a God who came up with such a place.

And you do well not to believe in the pagan idea of hell.

The hell mainstream Christianity teaches has nothing to do with shoel/hades/gehenna/tartaro