Why Were the Angels So Angry?

[AllAboutLove]

I have a question for the group.

During the War in Heaven, 1/3 of all the Angels rebelled against God (And were thus damned to Hell). BUT: If 1/3 of all the Angels were so mad that they actually took the "action step" of taking up arms & waging war against God.... then surely, there were other Angels that were upset (or sympathetic) as well, but for whatever reason, weren't willing to take up arms.

No matter how you slice it, that's a LOT of upset Angels! If Heaven was a Democracy, whatever was going on, God would've been out-voted by a landslide.

So WHAT was going on, and WHY were so many of the Angels so mad, they'd actually take up arms against God? It had to be something that they perceived as exceptionally egregious.... because remember, they didn't just get upset, they got so upset that they were willing to risk damnation by FIGHTING against an all-powerful God.....???

I'm reading a new book that discusses this, and it really made me think..... would appreciate hearing your thoughts. Thanx!

[squint]

[Replying to post 1 by AllAboutLove]

There are basically two types of angels in the scriptures. Holy and Evil.

The term angel means 'messenger.'

Evil messengers were evil from the beginning and will remain so to their end. They can do nothing but disobey and resist God, as that is what God made them to do.

The Kingdom of God is within us. That is also to location of the spiritual battles and entanglements with the wicked angels.

To assess that reality, just capture a stray wicked or temptation thought sometime and question where it came from.

All people have been subjugated to the entry of wicked messengers in mind and heart. All hearts are deceitfully wicked because of the occupancy of entities that are not the people.

[squint]

To begin with if the angels were truly unhappy shouldn't they let God know?

Satan and his messengers were made to resist. They are happy in an inverse way in doing that. I'd call it quite robotic in the anti-spiritual sense. More like an exercise machine made to produce certain end products in the spiritual sense.

Surely they shouldn't just continue living under the pretense that they are happy when in truth they are not. That would be to live a lie. Surely God would not want his angels to live out a lie and just pretend that they are happy when they aren't.If I had created life, say a sentient android, I would be concerned about it's welfare and happiness. If my android were unhappy I would want to know. And instead of kicking it out into a state of damnation I would do my very best to try to address the issues that is causing the android to be unhappy. Moreover, being the creator of the android I would take personal responsibility for it's situation. Perhaps the reason my android is unhappy is because I, as its creator, have failed in some way. To just blindly blame the android for everything seems unreasonable to me.

The wicked messengers were made to be that way. That is their nature. I wouldn't necessarily call them 'living.' More like the walking dead would be more accurate.

For me the idea of a "Father God" who can't deal with truth or unhappy angels is a sign of an inept creator to begin with.

Everything in creation has purposes. Some of creation were made to be used and eventually discarded and destroyed. Not much different than the wheat and the chaff. The chaff serves it's purpose until the wheat is grown. Then it is separated, divided off, and burned. There is no need for chaff to be happy. It merely serves it's purpose.

So in this sense I would not be expecting anything more from this supposedly all-powerful God than I would be willing to offer to my own creations.

If I am unhappy I would expect God to be concerned about that and try to deal with in it a positive and constructive manner instead of just casting me into a state of damnation blaming it all on me.

If you were the beneficiary of the chaff and the chaff was made to be used and discarded, why would you cry over it? All created things pass away regardless.

Shouldn't a creator take some responsibility for that which he creates?

Also, doesn't this story imply that this God is extremely limited. I mean, it's either live in heaven under God's rules, and bear it whether you like it or not. Or the alternative is to be damned.

I can appreciate your simplistic notion of christianity, but that is not the essence of the matters.

Evil resistance was made to demonstrate the Divine Characteristic of MERCY. The wicked messengers are a temporary characteristic and fulcrum of the opposing force that will be used as a real time deployment of Ultimate Mercy. If the wicked are then discarded, they will have served their temporary purposes for the experience.

Why such a simplistic situation? Shouldn't an omnipotent God be able to provide to his objects of creation with a place where they can be happy? After all it is claimed that with this God all things are possible.

Just look at the physical universe that we can see before us. It's vast beyond human comprehension. And that's just the part we can see. For all we know the universe is infinite. God can't find a place where his angels can be happy where they won't bother him?

They will be provided a nice warm permanent place called the Lake of Fire, and they will be very happy, except in reverse. But to them, it will seem like happiness. The Lake of Fire may seem bad to us, but it's not going to seem bad to them. They like bad.

This whole idea that we either need to be happy living with God and following all his rules lest he'll damn us to a place of eternal suffering and torture just doesn't make any sense at all. It also brings into question this Gods capabilities.

Apparently he can't even deal with upset angels in a positive and intelligent way.

Angles that he himself created!

How do you justify that in this theology?

If I had created an android that I couldn't not please or make happy (or CURE), I would never dream of condemning it to eternal damnation. At the very worst I would simply disassemble it (i.e. un-create it). And I wouldn't even blame the android. I would accept that this was entirely my own fault as the creator.

God merely tolerates the other parties, knowing their roles and what they were made for.

Even in our gardens on earth, weeds spring up to choke the plants we have desired to grow. Mankind is 'like' a garden of God in the spiritual senses. Every garden here also has crap or fertilizer that is essential for growth and serves it's purposes, but in the end it is only the final produce that is desired.

This would be a limitation on my part. I would need to bring into question my own abilities as a creator. And should I continue to create more androids if that's the best I could do?

There are so many problems with this biblical doctrine, that even if I wanted to believe in this God it would be exceedingly difficult because he appears to be truly inept in so many areas.

And I'm not expecting any higher moral values from this God than I already personally have as a mortal man.

Maybe you're saying why didn't God just replicate Himself? Which is just a strange notion of it's own. What would there be? A 'bigger' God indistinguishable from Himself?

You seem to have a bent about happiness. At the heart of happiness, there are underlying motives that cause unhappiness. What is it that makes happy or satisfies that needs quenching? Most people are constructed to 'feel good' or 'be happy' when they themselves 'do good.' That is how most people operate. That satisfies. That makes happy. It has to be 'worked out.' We have built in desires that need our participation to 'make happy.' It would be meaningless just handed to us on a platter.

[ttruscott]

...

Peace to you, Ted. Thank you very much for taking the time to write such a thoughtful reply. I do appreciate it.

I'm reading this new book, and it's really challenged my understanding of the Bible. It gets in real deep with the theology and twists everything around.... One of the things it asks is, if Satan & 1/3 of the Angels rebelled against God in Heaven where things are (at worst) heavenly, then why don't these Demons rebel against Satan in Hell where things are, at best, absolutely hellish? (A silly point, but it made me smile!)

I don't think anyone would rebel against EL SHADDAI if HE had proven HIS divinity and power. So what point of pride would encourage someone to deny a GOD?

If YHWH, after keeping in the background while the spirit society matured, proclaimed the gospel (Col 1:23) and introduced HIS Son as the Saviour, (the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world) and with appropriate warnings about the natural consequences of rejecting HIM and then asked that we all accept HIM as GOD on faith without proof by our hope would someone feel threatened in their status suddenly needing to bow to another above him...

This feeling of pride that there could not be anyone above him led to his free will rejection of YHWH as GOD, putting his faith in HIM being a false god telling lies about salvation or damnation, and he lead others astray with him. This is the war, not flame throwers and fists...they were spirits. These spirits self created themselves as demons by their free will decisions they made about their eternal relationship with YHWH and were flung to earth.

We are told in 2 Peter 2:4 For if God didn't spare the angels who sinned but threw them down into Tartarus and delivered them to be kept in chains of darkness until judgment... Blindness to the truth and darkness as opposite GOD's Light are strong symbols for minds enslaved by sin so they cannot ever understand spiritual truth which implies that they have no idea that things are going wrong for them. GOD hasn't defeated them, HE doesn't exist and they are having fun down here. Some did recognize Jesus and knew of their fate but on the whole very few seem to understand that at all.

We have no idea what they think of Satan but I assume they ignore him blinded by their own addiction to evil, believing in pagan false gods, they just go their own way following their own sinful desires. Some are sown into the world from sheol by the devil (Matt 13:38-39) to do his desires John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires... so some do work for him, maybe more than in a general way, perhaps specifically, <shrug>.

Peace, Ted

[arian]

I have a question for the group.

During the War in Heaven, 1/3 of all the Angels rebelled against God (And were thus damned to Hell). BUT: If 1/3 of all the Angels were so mad that they actually took the "action step" of taking up arms & waging war against God.... then surely, there were other Angels that were upset (or sympathetic) as well, but for whatever reason, weren't willing to take up arms.

No matter how you slice it, that's a LOT of upset Angels! If Heaven was a Democracy, whatever was going on, God would've been out-voted by a landslide.

Upset Angels?? Where did you hear that, not from the Bible, unless I missed something?
Now I did read that there were Angels who left their 'place', or 'stepped out of line' and went down to Earth and caused some genetic-troubles by taking human women as wives. I guess Angels want to experience things that were designed for us humans only? But just because they have free will like us, obviously there are 'lines we should never cross'.
Like if someone wonders: "Hmm, I wonder what it would feel like taking that beautiful women who refuses to go out with me, trick her and then force her to have sex with me?" Or say, .. "I wonder what it would feel like killing someone?"

So WHAT was going on, and WHY were so many of the Angels so mad, they'd actually take up arms against God? It had to be something that they perceived as exceptionally egregious.... because remember, they didn't just get upset, they got so upset that they were willing to risk damnation by FIGHTING against an all-powerful God.....???

That's funny 'AllAboutLove'; Why were the Angels mad at God?
I guess there are all kinds of divined POV's out there, and this is just one more to deviate people away from knowing God better, it places 'doubt' in weak minds already burdened by sin. It's as if the Angels in Heaven were conspiring against a cruel, evil totalitarian ruler, .. lol. And of course, who would be the first responder to this post? That's right, DI who hates this Bronze aged Hebrew Biblical, mythical, fairytale God, and thinks He is an evil monster.

I'm reading a new book that discusses this, and it really made me think..... would appreciate hearing your thoughts. Thanx!

If you have time to read this new-book that suggests the Angels are just not happy with God, then I suggest you take the time to read the Bible more thoroughly also, because by the time you re-read the first few chapters of the Bible, the true intent of this new-book you're reading would become real obvious to you, or anyone else reading it.

Wait, .. you did read the Bible haven't you? Because if you did, you would understand that God is "AllAboutLove" LOL, ....

[myth-one.com]

I have a question for the group.

During the War in Heaven, 1/3 of all the Angels rebelled against God (And were thus damned to Hell). BUT: If 1/3 of all the Angels were so mad that they actually took the "action step" of taking up arms & waging war against God.... then surely, there were other Angels that were upset (or sympathetic) as well, but for whatever reason, weren't willing to take up arms.

Only Satan will spend eternity in hell.

The others can be forgiven.

No matter how you slice it, that's a LOT of upset Angels! If Heaven was a Democracy, whatever was going on, God would've been out-voted by a landslide.

Why? Isn't two thirds more than one third?

So WHAT was going on, and WHY were so many of the Angels so mad, they'd actually take up arms against God? It had to be something that they perceived as exceptionally egregious.... because remember, they didn't just get upset, they got so upset that they were willing to risk damnation by FIGHTING against an all-powerful God.....???

I'm reading a new book that discusses this, and it really made me think..... would appreciate hearing your thoughts. Thanx!

It was a simple grab for power:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!... For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God... I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. (Isaiah 14:12-14)

It's a vanity problem!

That's why the meek will inherit the earth, while rich power seeking humans will have problems finding salvation.

[Cewakiyelo]

[Replying to AllAboutLove]

It was wing envy. The rebellious 1/3 of the angles were those that had smaller wings than the others. Now they often compensate by driving fancy fast chariots.

[dukekenha]

[Replying to post 1 by AllAboutLove]

We must take in consideration the status of an angel to answer the question. Angel are spirits made for the good of humans. They existed for the heirs of the promise of God (eternal life). Satan was an angel of God, a morning star who shone brighter than other angels (considering that the morning star shine even at daylight not like other star) but became ambitious and told his heart that he will be on top of the most high. The most high is God, satan being ambitious (who doesnt want to remain on the purpose of his being) of something not for him made his heart evil. And he knowing more than other angels had deceived a third of the whole. Making them believe that it is possible to win and some also left their nature and took the body of human to mate. That is how satan deceived them because he is a deceiver, he even deceived himself to believing that hell win. They know their place and being guardians of heirs of the promise they should be stronger and powerful than the heirs. They were not upset because they saw something egregious but because they want to be more than the most high. They taught numbers count as a gauge to win the fight and blinded by satan ambition to overthrow God, which made his ambitious heart insane. What they didnt consider is that they are against the one who created them (100% risk).

[jamesj]

[Replying to post 1 by AllAboutLove]

I think that this is a very interesting subject. I think that the one in three figure comes from the Book of Revelations but do not know of any other part of the Bible that talks about this.

My understanding of the issue is that God was displeased with some of the angels. He had made them with free will and some wanted to pursue their own desires even if they were contrary to what God wanted. There is a booklet by Herbert W Armstrong about this if you can find a copy.

If you are interested in uncanonised books the Book of Enoch has quite a lot to say about angels too.

Where did your idea that Heaven might be a democracy come from?

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 1 by AllAboutLove]

There are basically two types of angels in the scriptures. Holy and Evil.

The term angel means 'messenger.'

Evil messengers were evil from the beginning and will remain so to their end. They can do nothing but disobey and resist God, as that is what God made them to do.

That this blasphemy is believed by many does not prove it is not a blasphemy - GOD cannot create evil nor can HE send to eternal punishment those who only fulfilled their creation. All demons or fallen angels were created ingenuously innocent by GOD and self created themselves as eternally evil demons by their fre will rebellion against GOD.

All people have been subjugated to the entry of wicked messengers in mind and heart. All hearts are deceitfully wicked because of the occupancy of entities that are not the people.

The fact that our inner temptations can come from a demon does not prove either that they indwell every sinner nor that the sinful elect are not just as evil as the demons by their own free will from their own addiction to sin and need no help from them to be evil at all until GOD starts to work on them to bring them to redemption and then no demon can prevail in them against the indwelling Holy Spirit.

And, I wonder how "All people have been subjugated to the entry of wicked messengers in mind and heart." correlates to your previous description of satan and the demons being expressions of our own rebellious natures...are you merely being poetic?

Peace, Ted

[squint]

That this blasphemy is believed by many does not prove it is not a blasphemy - GOD cannot create evil nor can HE send to eternal punishment those who only fulfilled their creation. All demons or fallen angels were created ingenuously innocent by GOD and self created themselves as eternally evil demons by their fre will rebellion against GOD.

I'd call that another christian fairy tale, that God can not create evil.

God can create any 'thing' or any 'power' including the power of evil and not 'be' the same as that power.

Those who say that God IS the things He creates are engaging a form of pantheism. (that God is everything He creates.)

God 'created' the entity class of devils precisely to resist and will destroy them upon completion of uses. Not much different than shutting off the operating switch on a robot.

All people have been subjugated to the entry of wicked messengers in mind and heart. All hearts are deceitfully wicked because of the occupancy of entities that are not the people.

The fact that our inner temptations can come from a demon does not prove either that they indwell every sinner nor that the sinful elect are not just as evil as the demons by their own free will from their own addiction to sin and need no help from them to be evil at all until GOD starts to work on them to bring them to redemption and then no demon can prevail in them against the indwelling Holy Spirit.

I look to Paul for this matter. Paul for example had a devil in his flesh (2 Cor. 12:7). That did not make Paul evil, but evil was present with him in the form of an entity that was not him, a devil.

There was therefore Paul, a child of God. And a devil. An entity that will be tossed in the Lake of Fire within Paul. Two entirely different parties.

And, I wonder how "All people have been subjugated to the entry of wicked messengers in mind and heart." correlates to your previous description of satan and the demons being expressions of our own rebellious natures...are you merely being poetic?

I never said the 'rebellious natures' were of mankind. But are 'within' mankind as the other party, the tempter and/or his minions. Nor do I blur the lines between the parties. The elect are already perfect, even though soiled in the flesh by the 'other parties.'

Believers are to 'rule' within their own temples as priests and kings, as subjects to our Divine King, Jesus, in their own mind and bodies, BUT the other party(s) remain within them in this current life and will still actively RESIST everything of God and His Christ.

I do not see any person as 'just and only the person.' Jesus being the sole exception, God Himself in flesh, subsequently resurrected and glorified. None of the balance of us are 'like that.' We all have 'other' issues.

s