Evangelicals vs. Jehovah's Witnesses

[Elijah John]

Evangelicals often call Jehovah's Witnesses, a "cult" and not Christian.

Jehovah's Witnesses, seem to consider Roman Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox etc, "not-Christian" (JWs please correct me if I'm wrong on this)

Question for debate, why can't all of these groups rightly be considered "Christian"?

And part two of this OP question is directed primarily to Evangelicals, why don't you consider JWs to be Christian?

[myth-one.com]

You have overlooked the fact that Rev 7: 15, says the great crowd that no one could number,
we're BEFORE THE THRONE OF GOD ---- In heaven.

Actually, the word "heaven" appears nowhere in that chapter.

[2timothy316]

You have overlooked the fact that Rev 7: 15, says the great crowd that no one could number,
we're BEFORE THE THRONE OF GOD ---- In heaven.

Actually, the word "heaven" appears nowhere in that chapter.

Also, one doesn't have to be in Heaven to stand before the throne in Heaven. Matthew 25:31, 32 says, "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." This separation of sheep and goats doesn't happen in Heaven.

There is no actual throne as in a some chair in Heaven either. Heaven is a spiritual place and isn't made of the stuff like atoms like our universe is made of. A throne in Heaven is just a way to explain to us in a way we understand a position of rulership and all the duties that comes with it in Heaven.

[Saved75]

You have overlooked the fact that Rev 7: 15, says the great crowd that no one could number,
we're BEFORE THE THRONE OF GOD ---- In heaven.

Actually, the word "heaven" appears nowhere in that chapter.

Where do you think the Throne is??, Rev 7: 15??
Where do you think God is??. Let my tell you, God is on His throne, IN HEAVEN.

[Saved75]

I do know what the JWs teach about salvation, And I know it' isn't Biblical.
In fact they don't believe one is born again in this life, and the say only the 144.000 are the Anointed one's who will go to heaven.

http://biblehub.com/revelation/7-4.htm

"And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel." Rev 7:4

Isn't Biblical? As you can see it is Biblical. Don't you mean it doesn't fit your doctrine?

However, there will be more that 144,000 saved. Just not saved to Heaven. The Bible says no man can number those.

Rev. 7:9, 14: “After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues..."

You have overlooked the fact that Rev 7: 15, says the great crowd that no one could number,
we're BEFORE THE THRONE OF GOD ---- In heaven.

I didn't over look that scripture, that's why it's in my post. But what many have overlooked is there there are two folds of sheep. 'Little flock' = 144,000 to Heaven and 'Other Sheep' = Uncountable number to stay on Earth. (Luke 12:32; John 10:16)

But you said that 144,000 was not scriptural and that was not true. It is also not true that Witnesses believe only 144,000 will be saved. We believe a 'Great Crowd' will be saved. What we don't believe is that saved means one must go to Heaven. The Bible says that the both Heaven and Earth will be filled with the meek and righteous. "But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell." 2 Peter 3:13 (Matthew 5:5, Psalm 37:11, Isa 45:18)

You did overlooked Rev 7: 15, You overlooked that the great crowd were in heaven around God's Throne.

There is only ONE BODY, Not two, Eph 4: 4. The "Little flock", Lk 12: 32, and
The "Other fold", Jn 10: 16, are the Jews who get saved, and the Gentiles who get saved, As we are all one, Jn 17: 20--23. Please note the words, "ONE".
Also see, Eph 2: 11--22. There is no Biblical teaching of Two folds of sheep, After the Church was born.

JWs believe that only the 144.000 are the Anointed ones, and only they will go to heaven, But that isn't scriptural, YOU DON'T FIND IT IN THE BIBLE.
Rev 6: 9. Rev 7: 9--15, Prove that there are those who aren't among the 144.000, yet they are in heaven.
PLUS, The 144,000 are all Jewish male virgins, So according to the JWs, Philip and Peter will never go to heaven As they weren't virgins, [They were married].
Mary, [The mother of Jesus] wont be in heaven, As she was a woman.
And the Anointed Gentiles in Acts 10, wont get to heaven, because they weren't Jews.

The JWs must see God as a respecter of people, And that makes Him a sinner, according to the JWs

[Saved75]

You have overlooked the fact that Rev 7: 15, says the great crowd that no one could number,
we're BEFORE THE THRONE OF GOD ---- In heaven.

Actually, the word "heaven" appears nowhere in that chapter.

Also, one doesn't have to be in Heaven to stand before the throne in Heaven. Matthew 25:31, 32 says, "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." This separation of sheep and goats doesn't happen in Heaven.

There is no actual throne as in a some chair in Heaven either. Heaven is a spiritual place and isn't made of the stuff like atoms like our universe is made of. A throne in Heaven is just a way to explain to us in a way we understand a position of rulership and all the duties that comes with it in Heaven.

You have overlooked the fact that Those in Heaven, In Rev 6: 9 and Rev 7: 9--15, are in heaven around the throne, Before Jesus comes back in His glory, at the end of the age.

[2timothy316]

You have overlooked the fact that Rev 7: 15, says the great crowd that no one could number,
we're BEFORE THE THRONE OF GOD ---- In heaven.

Actually, the word "heaven" appears nowhere in that chapter.

Also, one doesn't have to be in Heaven to stand before the throne in Heaven. Matthew 25:31, 32 says, "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." This separation of sheep and goats doesn't happen in Heaven.

There is no actual throne as in a some chair in Heaven either. Heaven is a spiritual place and isn't made of the stuff like atoms like our universe is made of. A throne in Heaven is just a way to explain to us in a way we understand a position of rulership and all the duties that comes with it in Heaven.

You have overlooked the fact that Those in Heaven, In Rev 6: 9 and Rev 7: 9--15, are in heaven around the throne, Before Jesus comes back in His glory, at the end of the age.

Note Matthew 25:31, 32 that you can be human and stand before the throne. People don't have to be in Heaven to stand before the throne.

Matthew 25:31, 32 says, "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats."

Goats are not going to be allowed into Heaven and then separated. This separation takes place before the throne on Earth.

[2timothy316]

JWs believe that only the 144.000 are the Anointed ones, and only they will go to heaven, But that isn't scriptural, YOU DON'T FIND IT IN THE BIBLE.

Is the following scripture not in your Bible? Is that why you keeping calling it unscriptural?

"And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth." Rev 14:3

It even says where these 144,000 come from. The Earth. Please tell me you see this scripture. What do you think happens to the rest that are not 144,000? They are just discarded? Of course not. But the Bible is clear, the 144,000 are bought from all the Earth.

Are you confusing the term unscriptural with going against your doctrine? Just because something goes against your doctrine doesn't mean not in the Bible. The number of people bought from the Earth is 144,000. There is nothing in the Bible to suggest this number is figurative. If you want to know what JW really teach and can go any further you must understand that the number 144,000 is from the Bible and saying that it's not is truly is false. Once you accept there is a number in the Bible of 144,000 then we can find out how to identify who these are using the Bible. If you reject this number is from the Bible and they come from Earth then I have nothing else to show you.

[Saved75]

JWs believe that only the 144.000 are the Anointed ones, and only they will go to heaven, But that isn't scriptural, YOU DON'T FIND IT IN THE BIBLE.

Is the following scripture not in your Bible? Is that why you keeping calling it unscriptural?

"And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth. Rev 14:3

It even says where these 144,000 come from. The Earth. Please tell me you see this scripture.

Are you confusing the term unscriptural with going against your doctrine? Just because something goes against your doctrine doesn't mean not in the Bible. The number of people bought from the Earth is 144,000. If you want to know what JW really teach and can go any further you must understand that the number 144,000 is from the Bible and saying that it's not is truly is false. Once you accept there is a number in the Bible of 144,000 then we can find out how to identify who these are using the Bible. If you reject this number is from the Bible then I have nothing else to show you.

What I said isn't scriptural, is, Only the 144.0000 wil,go to heaven. I didn't say the 144.000 won't go to heaven.
It's not me who is going against the Biblical doctrines, It's you, because you say only the 144.000 go to heaven, yet Rev 6: 9 and Rev 7: 9--15, proves you wrong.

If you notice, Rev 6: 9, and Rev 7: 14, You'll see that they came from the earth as well.

Plus The 144.000 aren't in the Church age, they come in the great tribulation period, as do those in
Rev 6: 9 and Rev 7: 9--15.
I'm not rejecting the fact that there will be 144.000, I'm rejecting the teaching that they are the only ones who go to heaven.

[Elijah John]

OK, the topic is going somewhat afield of what I envisioned. I realize that Evangelicals vs Jehovah's Witnesses differ on points of doctrine, well beyond the nature of Jesus in relation to God.

Seems we are getting bogged down with arguments about the details end-times and the afterlife.

But what I'm really wondering:

Evangelicals: Do you believe JW's are doomed to hell because they differ on these matters from your point of view?

And Jehovah's Witnesses: Do you believe Evangelicals are doomed to the eternal grave because they differ with you on these matters?

If either camp answers "yes", how do we determine who is right?

Not about the differing theological position in and of themselves, but rather about the implications of one side being wrong, and the other being right. Does one's "theological correctness" on these matters have eternal consequences?

Or is possible that both camps will be "saved"?

[2timothy316]

There is something that has always puzzled me about people that reject what the Bible says about people living on Earth forever. Do they hate the idea of a paradise like Adam and Eve once had? Being able to be close to God, His Son and all the angels yet still be human? No sickness, death, war, struggle and ageless bodies? What is so bad about this? What is that they want out of Heaven that life on Earth can't provide?