Eternal Hell

[amortalman]

I have two questions primarily for Christians.

1) If your brand of religion teaches that unbelievers will be judged by God and cast into Hell and the Lake of Fire for eternity to suffer there with no possibility of death or escape, is this action by God a just punishment, and why?

2) The second question is purely hypothetical and reaches way out there. If your God gave you permission to do as you please concerning eternal Hell, to keep it, or to abolish it in favor of, say, annihilation, would you keep it or do away with it?

NOTE: In regards to question number one I'm thinking about the story told by Jesus of the rich man and Lazarus found in Luke chapter 16. The Lake of Fire is mentioned in Revelation 20:10-15 and 21:8.

To me, an eternity of suffering in Hell defies logic and any sense of compassion what-so-ever. During my years as a Christian in an evangelical church, I've heard many preachers preface a sermon on Hell by saying they don't like to talk about it and don't like the concept of it but they must preach it because that's what the Bible teaches. I was once a part of a Biblical teaching program for children 2nd through 6th grade. I can only imagine the nightmares some of them had after being told that without Jesus they would go to Hell forever. Someone might argue that it's better that than to go to Hell. But does the fear tactic really work, and if it does, is that the best way, to scare the hell out of them?

In my understanding of the Bible, and what is being taught to millions of people in evangelical churches around the world, there are two kinds of people who will be cast into Hell. Those who have never heard the gospel and those how have rejected the gospel after having heard it. According to that teaching, there are countless millions of poor souls being tormented in Hell right now because they never had an opportunity to hear about Christ. Furthermore, there are hundreds if not thousands that are dying every day and going to Hell for lack of an opportunity to decide. Is that just?

Finally, I'm hopeful that the second question will cut to the Christians heart concerning the doctrine of Hell and reveal the insanity of it. To me, someone who would keep Hell if given the chance to abolish it is a Sadist of the worse kind. But then again, if a Christian says that he would do away with Hell is he demonstrating that he is more merciful than God?

What say you?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 44 by JehovahsWitness] After the resurrection from their graves Jesus indicates that the reprobate are to be thrown into another place other than where they had been.

Matthew 25:41
Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

This is a "place" that compares to "Gehenna" and the Lake of Fire. They all mean TOTAL ANNIHILATION. They are metaphoric concepts. The "eternal fire" is obliteration for a certainty. A person will not come out of it. He will be gone forever. The same meaning is attributed to "Gehenna" and the "Lake of Fire."

Look more closely at Revelation 20:14. How can "death" be literally thrown or cast into something? Obviously the Lake of Fire means something besides a literal lake of fire. Can you explain that verse?


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[postroad]

[Replying to post 61 by onewithhim] Exactily. Death will be destroyed after the resurrection. Whatever the lake of fire is, those in it will wish for death and not find it.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 57 by onewithhim]
Your points are valid concerning death and the grave. But remember that both the righteous and the reprobate are resurected. What would be the point of resurrecting someone and sending them back to the grave?

Revelation 20:10New International Version (NIV)

onewithhim comments:

That is correct. And what would be the point of resurrecting them and sending them to everlasting destruction?

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[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 61 by onewithhim] Exactily. Death will be destroyed after the resurrection. Whatever the lake of fire is, those in it will wish for death and not find it.

Exactly what? You agree with my post? Well, I don't understand your explanation of Revelation 20:14. I agree with what you say about death being destroyed, or, done away with, after the Thousand Years. (See verses 1-3,7.) But you did not explain what the Lake of Fire is or what it represents, and I think that this is vitally important to understand. Looking at the verse again, how do you think it should be understood?

"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire." (NASB)


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[postroad]

[Replying to post 63 by onewithhim]

God's good pleasure to make known to his elect his power and mercy towards them? Those in the lake of fire will be tormented in the presence of Jesus and the elect.

Romans 9:10-23New International Version (NIV)

10 Not only that, but Rebekahs children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad"in order that Gods purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls"she was told, The older will serve the younger.[a] 13 Just as it is written: Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.[c]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on Gods mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.[d] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will? 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, Why did you make me like this?[e] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath"prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory"

Footnotes:

[tam]

So there is no contradiction. Because of what some do (or have done), Christ invites them into the Kingdom as well, where they too may eat from the tree of life and live forever. But this too is mercy and love toward them. They did not get there on their own, and they could not be resurrected (brought to life and freed from death) without Him.

But there is a contradiction. They are getting there on their own works.

No, they are not. Their own works did not resurrect them. Nor did their own works magically impart to them eternal life.

And yes, you are assuming things. You are assuming that those who were/are blind at any given time... receive eternal torment or eternal death. Where do you get that from the verse speaking about why He speaks to the people in parables? Does it state that He speaks to them in parables so that they will receive eternal torment or eternal death? Or are you adding that, yourself?

We've already settled this.

No, you seem to be deflecting from the point. You are saying that those who 'seeing do not see' (from the question of why Christ speaks to the people in parables) are going to receive eternal torment or eternal death. But the verse itself makes no mention of this as their fate, and Paul states that all Israel will be saved, and that though they have experienced a hardening, that will not always be the case.

As well, the verse does state why the people were not hearing and seeing:

This is why I speak to them in parables: Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled: You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this peoples heart has grown callous; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn, and I would heal them.


So it is not that He did not want to heal them. It is that they were not willing. As He says again elsewhere:

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

You are using the bible as your source, and yet that book has Paul stating that all Israel will be saved, so that would include those of Israel who 'seeing, did not see'. So since such ones were also Israel - and all Israel will be saved - obviously the verse that you are using does not mean what you are suggesting. Not even according to the book you are using as your source.

Again, this seems to be a deflection from the point, regarding 'hell' and the fate of those who did not understand the parables.

If you wish to speak of faith verses works, then that is another topic.

This is really getting complicated now. If this is the case then the idea that everyone needs to seek Jesus as their savior is ridiculous. Only those who lust to become rulers and rule over others need apply.

A - those who love Christ and belong to Him hear, follow and obey Him. BECAUSE they love Him. That is the case for me, and for those I know. I did not even know that some would be kings and priests with Him in His Kingdom. I simply loved Him.

You loved him? If that's true then he must have met YOUR APPROVAL. Not the other way around.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic. It seems to be avoiding the point that you are incorrect to state that those who seek and follow Christ do so because they 'lust to be rulers and to rule over others."

That being said, to address YOUR point here,

Love begets love.

He loved me first.

You can reject him

Can you?

A person might not know Him (though He might know them because of the good things that they have done for even a least one of his brothers, unknowingly doing good to him as well).


But how can a person actively reject a King (and/or His law - which is love) and still expect that they can and should be invited into His Kingdom?




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[postroad]

[Replying to post 64 by onewithhim]
Let's go over it A place of never ending torment will exist and continue to exist for eternity

Revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

After the resurection and judgement Jesus will consign those on the left to this place.

Matthew 25:41
Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

. There suffering will be eternal. Death will no longer be an escape. It is abolished.

Revelation 20:13-15New International Version (NIV)

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

This second death is eternal pain.

Revelation 2:11New International Version (NIV)

11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 10 by 2timothy316] But from your position the Christians who teach an eternal suffering in hell must be the greatest blasphemers of God ever to exist?

On the other hand, there are those who argue the need for the sinful elect to be redeemed is to suggest that they fell into sin over this very question: that after the evil reprobate fully rejected YHWH as their GOD, believing HIM to be a false god and a liar that YHWH then immediately called for their judgement since HE cannot live with, abide, evil and this would be HIS first command to HIS elect, "Come out from among them in your hearts so they can be condemned!"

Some of the elect who had accepted HIM only to come under the promise of salvation and then go their own way, rejected the judgement as improper to a GOD of love, calling it too harsh for mere unbelief and too extreme in torment to be allowed whereby they became as evil as the demons, needing to have HIS promise of salvation fulfilled in them, forcing the postponement of the judgement and the state of heaven until after they are all redeemed and brought to righteous holiness in complete accord with HIS plan to complete the absolute necessary judgement against all evil.

The use of our planet as a prison planet for demons was made necessary by the unwillingness of some of HIS elect to accept HIS plan for the judgement, that is, it is the sin of the elect who forced this world of suffering upon us, the need for us to live together with the reprobate to learn their lesson that the judgement is an absolute necessity no matter what form it might take.

[ttruscott]

Can anyone doubt that a God described in these texts is also capable of torturing individuals for eternity?

Of course I doubt it - the incidence of pain doesn't prove torture in face of the claims it is righteous judgement again eternal criminality.

Torture speaks to intent, not the pain itself.

[Divine Insight]

But how can a person actively reject a King (and/or His law - which is love) and still expect that they can and should be invited into His Kingdom?

Jesus himself tells you that you can do this in John 12:48.

He even explains in precise detail in the single verse of Luke 6:37. In this simple short verse he tells you everything you need to know to merit your own salvation.

Of course, if a person reads this verse and tries to put forth an effort to "follow" this advice when it's not their natural character to behave this way, then you could argue that they are still "following Christ".

However, there are those of us who just happen to coincidentally be in harmony with the criteria laid out in Luke 6:37. Therefore we aren't "following" anyone. Instead we are just being who we are.

These people have no need of any King to rule over them, nor is there any need to decree a "law" that they must obey. Love to them is not a mandate, but instead it's just their nature.

In fact, if a person needs to "follow" Jesus' "Law of Love" because it's not their nature to be naturally loving, then I can understand why they might feel that it's so important that someone dictate to them how they must behave.

But for those of us who are naturally loving souls there's no need to "follow Jesus", to the contrary we walk with him side-by-side as equals in total harmony with love.

You seem to be wanting to place Jesus above love. That is an abomination to love itself. If love is the "whole of the law" as you seem to believe, then there is no need for any lawyer, or King.

In fact, if love was nothing more than a law that is being dictated to us, that would cheapen it and basically destroy it. Love that needs to be forced by authority is no love at all.

Deepak Chopra actually addresses this specific point quite often. He says, "If Jesus is pointing to love, then why are people worshiping Jesus? Shouldn't they be looking to the thing Jesus is pointing to instead?"

Deepak Chopra often suggests that many Christians are worshiping the messenger instead of the message.

If a person places Jesus on a pedestal above Love, then they have diminished love itself and have replaced love with the idol worship of Jesus. In fact, the Bible tells specifically not to do that.

If love is what Jesus was preaching, then Christians should be pointing to love, not telling people they need to submit to the dictatorship of Jesus. That's ridiculous.

Love cannot be dictated. The best you can do is stand beside Jesus as an equal and agree with him that love is supreme. If you lay beneath his feet as his slave, you are not honoring love, but instead you are condoning oppression and proclaiming Jesus to be your oppressor.