Second Coming in the Sky?

[liamconnor]

Certain biblical authors talk of Christ returning from the sky: Acts and Paul.

Paul tells Christians that they will be caught up to meet him.


There is an obvious imaginative problem here: even if a figure should appear in the sky, that portion of sky will be visible from only so many miles. The number of people who could fly up to surround such a flying figure can only be so many; twenty, thirty?

At any rate, even during Paul's time people in Ephesus could not possibly see clouds in Thessalonia.


Did Paul believe that Jesus would literally return on clouds and therefore in one particular place in space? Or was Paul less interested in such literal details as he was in theological and apocalyptic precedents? Namely, Daniel's apocalypse, where

"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. (Dan 7:13 NAS)

Daniel clearly uses symbolism throughout much of the book.

Do the early Christians use symbolism also when writing of Jesus' return?

[JehovahsWitness]

Yes sir, I was referring to this: "This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven. referring to claims of His invisible appearance.

Yes, I agree that you are referring to this scripture, in view of the topic. Excellent. Did you have a point to make about it or did you again just want me to look at it? I see no question mark in your post, so there is nothing in the post I feel obliged to respond to (I can't respond to a question that has not been asked).

JW

[onewithhim]

Thanks again onewithhim

So you don't believe we have a spirit that operates this body of dust? Or that we can invite Gods Spirit, or demons into this house of flesh made of dust?

How do you understand demonic possession, like the ones Jesus cast out of men? Was that just mental illness and Jesus removed the tumor, and 'casting out demons' was just symbolic?

The spirit that operates this body of dust is the life-force that caused Adam to become a living soul. It is the Father's Spirit. This spirit keeps us alive. It is not some "mini-me" that consciously leaves the body at death. It is just God's power, so to speak, that "returns to Him" just like a current of electricity "returns" to the Source of its power when a switch is flipped off.

John 4:24
God is Spirit (electric power?), and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.

Demonic possession is a human being possessed by spirit persons---they are already persons who were CREATED as spirit persons, and they decided to rebel against God. They are not dead people.

Demonic possession is a human being possessed by spirit persons, .. like "mini-me's"?

Just curious, .. so why couldn't God make a body out of dust (iron, zinc, magnesium etc. like a robot) and breathe a mini-me into its nostrils, which takes possession of that pile of dust and makes it come alive and be a living being?

Thanks again.

No, demons would not be "mini-me"s, because they are not the person they are possessing.[/quote]

Right, they are mini-me's spirit-persons without a body. Why wouldn't 'mini-me' fit? I mean look, please?

According to the Bible, the human body was created out of dirt, including metals like a robot. It lay there without any personality just as we see a dead person today, right?

Are you really aware of the things you say? I think about the old expression of someone "pulling my leg." Some things are downright comical.

You're the one who came up with mini-me, I just went with it.

To answer your last question---I don't know why God wouldn't do that, but He didn't. All he breathed into the first human was "the breath of life," and Adam came to be a living soul.

So God, who is Holy and Spirit breathed into a pile of dust "the breath of life" and Adam came to be a living soul as you said.

What exactly IS that 'breath of life' coming from the Creator of life Himself? If it was just something like electricity, man has tried that on many dead bodies, (Frankenstein story was one example) yet no "living soul", .. right?

So with NO pun intended, what else can that "breath of life" be other than a mini-me? A basic program from the Great Program, the Life Himself, The Spirit as you explained to me in Greek, that One and Only Conscious Infinite "I Am" whose very first creation was "The Word" (not something like electricity) but a set of strict rules which all languages follow.

Look at all creatures God created on this earth, they all have bodies of dust just as we humans have, which sit there like a rock would, and each with a different individual program/spirit/breath of life which is different in each species, different intelligence or gifts as the Bible says:

Genesis 3:3 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, Has God indeed said, You shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

I know, "don't go there", it's not Biblical! But what I say IS Biblical, check it out yourself:

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.
4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.

what would: "seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase mean other than that man will reach intellectual heights like never before?

Would of A.I. programming make any sense in the past 6,000 years other then it does now in these last days?

Were we not created in God and His son Words image? Are we not allowed to read the Bible with the knowledge of today?

God said: shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end

Until the time of the end? The end of what? What will be the sign when God sees we are ready to understand? It's right there in the same sentence.

I sure don't want to end up like them 5 foolish virgins, especially now that the "oil" is flowing like never before, where I can look up any info on anything in seconds on Google alone, .. right?[/quote]


ONEWITHHIM'S RESPONSE:

I think I answered pretty well any questions about a conscious spirit ("mini-me") that Christendom teaches leaves the body at death. It is not able to be substantiated by Scripture, as I feel I have shown.

God's spirit is LIKE electric power; I was using allegory. "Spirit" can refer to any of a number of things, one of which is an actual, real person who has a body of spirit---real though invisible. We determine what is meant when the word "spirit" is used by the context. One thing is for sure---"spirit" never refers to something conscious that leaves our body at death.

You are correct, I would say, that when Adam was created at first he lay there like a dead body until God "breathed into him the breath of life"----made him live and breathe. No connection to any "mini-me,"or, a spirit twin/clone of ourselves.

What is your point about mentioning Genesis 3:3 & 4?

Daniel 12:2 means that in the last days people would learn the truth about God and His purposes. Knowledge of Him will become abundant. Yes, after millennia of spiritual darkness and misconceptions, mankind will finally be given clear instruction about God and His own governmental arrangement.

"The end" means the end of this crazy messed-up system of things controlled by Satan. (I John 5:19)

.

[Trump]

ONEWITHHIM'S RESPONSE:

I think I answered pretty well any questions about a conscious spirit ("mini-me") that Christendom teaches leaves the body at death. It is not able to be substantiated by Scripture, as I feel I have shown.

God's spirit is LIKE electric power; I was using allegory. "Spirit" can refer to any of a number of things, one of which is an actual, real person who has a body of spirit---real though invisible. We determine what is meant when the word "spirit" is used by the context. One thing is for sure---"spirit" never refers to something conscious that leaves our body at death.

Yes, I understand about the allegory, but is that all that the "breath of life" is?
Can we look deeper into this? How about the story of Lazarus and the rich man, Luke 16:22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abrahams bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

This is Jesus speaking, is this all allegorical?
1. the beggar dies and is carried by angels to Abrahams bosom
references; John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
John 11:26
And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?

1) Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham, the Father of our faith, the other Jesus, in the bosom of the Father.

John 11:26 says those who believes in Jesus will never die, and there is no mention of Lazarus being buried, yet we know he was because even David; Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption; 37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption."
.. seen corruption, but may be there in the spirit realm with Abraham also?

Revelation 5:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth? 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Is this allegorical too?

Could it be that on that Spiritual plane with God, Lazarus never died? That he exists in both body and spirit there with Abraham along with all the saints, and the righteous who have also died? Which would fulfill John 11:26?

I'm just asking you, since there may be words here that means something completely different in it's original translation?

2) The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, ..

dead, buried yet in torment in a place like Hades, the abode of the dead in which indicates a body and soul, what allegorical sense would that make?

You are correct, I would say, that when Adam was created at first he lay there like a dead body until God "breathed into him the breath of life"----made him live and breathe. No connection to any "mini-me," or, a spirit twin/clone of ourselves.

What is your point about mentioning Genesis 3:3 & 4?

The body wasn't Adam, it was a form of man made out of dust.
Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

only after 'the breath of life' that man became a living being, or Adam.

Not 3:3 &4, I meant Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, Has God indeed said, You shall not eat of every tree of the garden? as I printed it out, which clearly states that even the beast of the field have different levels of cunning, and wisdom.

Where does that come from, evolution, or the "breath of life"?
Or like the infant, you can tell the baby wants to do more than his/her body allows. Is that not the spirit of man, or is it again evolution acting on the brain?

Daniel 12:2 means that in the last days people would learn the truth about God and His purposes. Knowledge of Him will become abundant. Yes, after millennia of spiritual darkness and misconceptions, mankind will finally be given clear instruction about God and His own governmental arrangement.

So you don't think it has anything to do with science and technology in the end days? Like our understanding of DNA, computer technology etc.?

Like for 90% of my life I thought I was an insignificant speck who lived on a globe spinning through the cold vacuum of some infinite space, completely ignoring Gods Flat Earth which I walked and seen every day.
After I stopped making fun of a fellow debater for even bringing it up, after one serious look everything changed.
Likewise I believe God will open the eyes of those truly seeking, as to who our Creator really is, not as He is depicted as "just another of the gods, the greatest one".

"The end" means the end of this crazy messed-up system of things controlled by Satan. (I John 5:19)

I understand it to mean the last days, starting with Jesus;
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, ..

1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

[onewithhim]

ONEWITHHIM'S RESPONSE:

I think I answered pretty well any questions about a conscious spirit ("mini-me") that Christendom teaches leaves the body at death. It is not able to be substantiated by Scripture, as I feel I have shown.

God's spirit is LIKE electric power; I was using allegory. "Spirit" can refer to any of a number of things, one of which is an actual, real person who has a body of spirit---real though invisible. We determine what is meant when the word "spirit" is used by the context. One thing is for sure---"spirit" never refers to something conscious that leaves our body at death.

Yes, I understand about the allegory, but is that all that the "breath of life" is?
Can we look deeper into this? How about the story of Lazarus and the rich man, Luke 16:22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abrahams bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

This is Jesus speaking, is this all allegorical?
1. the beggar dies and is carried by angels to Abrahams bosom
references; John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
John 11:26
And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?

1) Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham, the Father of our faith, the other Jesus, in the bosom of the Father.

John 11:26 says those who believes in Jesus will never die, and there is no mention of Lazarus being buried, yet we know he was because even David; Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption; 37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption."
.. seen corruption, but may be there in the spirit realm with Abraham also?

Revelation 5:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth? 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Is this allegorical too?

Could it be that on that Spiritual plane with God, Lazarus never died? That he exists in both body and spirit there with Abraham along with all the saints, and the righteous who have also died? Which would fulfill John 11:26?

I'm just asking you, since there may be words here that means something completely different in it's original translation?

2) The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, ..

dead, buried yet in torment in a place like Hades, the abode of the dead in which indicates a body and soul, what allegorical sense would that make?

You are correct, I would say, that when Adam was created at first he lay there like a dead body until God "breathed into him the breath of life"----made him live and breathe. No connection to any "mini-me," or, a spirit twin/clone of ourselves.

What is your point about mentioning Genesis 3:3 & 4?

The body wasn't Adam, it was a form of man made out of dust.
Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

only after 'the breath of life' that man became a living being, or Adam.

Not 3:3 &4, I meant Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, Has God indeed said, You shall not eat of every tree of the garden? as I printed it out, which clearly states that even the beast of the field have different levels of cunning, and wisdom.

Where does that come from, evolution, or the "breath of life"?
Or like the infant, you can tell the baby wants to do more than his/her body allows. Is that not the spirit of man, or is it again evolution acting on the brain?

Daniel 12:2 means that in the last days people would learn the truth about God and His purposes. Knowledge of Him will become abundant. Yes, after millennia of spiritual darkness and misconceptions, mankind will finally be given clear instruction about God and His own governmental arrangement.

So you don't think it has anything to do with science and technology in the end days? Like our understanding of DNA, computer technology etc.?

Like for 90% of my life I thought I was an insignificant speck who lived on a globe spinning through the cold vacuum of some infinite space, completely ignoring Gods Flat Earth which I walked and seen every day.
After I stopped making fun of a fellow debater for even bringing it up, after one serious look everything changed.
Likewise I believe God will open the eyes of those truly seeking, as to who our Creator really is, not as He is depicted as "just another of the gods, the greatest one".

"The end" means the end of this crazy messed-up system of things controlled by Satan. (I John 5:19)

I understand it to mean the last days, starting with Jesus;
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, ..

1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Yes, the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is allegorical. There is nothing in it that can logically be taken literally.

First we must recognize the fact that Jesus was telling this parable to make a point to the Pharisees, who were listening. (Luke 16:14) Since we have discussed what "Hades" means quite a bit on these threads, it is fairly clearly evident the "Hades" means mankind's grave, not a place where someone is tortured endlessly. So it's quite reasonable to accept the idea that Jesus was here telling an illustration, or, a story, with a deeper meaning than what most people seem to want to believe. Jesus wasn't teaching that there is really a place where people are burned alive. He was using allegory to illustrate some hard facts about the Pharisees.

(Is "hell" (Hades) literally within speaking distance of heaven so that such a real conversation could be carried on? Also, if the rich man were in a literal burning lake, how could Abraham really send Lazarus to cool his tongue with just a drop of water on the tip of his finger?)

Here is Jesus' point: The rich man stood for the self-important religious leaders who rejected Jesus and later killed him. Lazarus pictured the common people who accepted Jesus. The death of the rich man and of Lazarus represented a change in their condition or their situation before God. This change took place when Jesus fed the neglected Lazarus-like people spiritual food, which they weren't getting from their irresponsible religious leaders that just gave them crumbs of spiritual food. (See verse 21.) These people that listened to Jesus came into favor with the "Greater Abraham." God the Father. At the same time, the hypocritical religious leaders "died" with respect to having God's favor at all. Being cast off, they suffered torments when their evil works were exposed by Jesus and his followers. (Acts 7:51-57)

So, therefore, it can be understood that this story (similar to an Aesop fable) does NOT teach that some dead people are tortured in a literal hell-fire.

Abraham is not in the spirit realm. Where in the Bible is that said? In fact, Jesus said that no one went to heaven before he came to earth, and also that he will resurrect EVERYBODY "in the last day," which hasn't come yet. (John 3:13; John 6:44)


My point in mentioning Genesis 3:3,4 is a very important one. The belief in a "soul" or "spirit" that leaves the body at death and lives on, fully conscious, is not a teaching of God. It does not have any basis in the Scriptures. The whole idea is from the Devil, as is seen in Genesis 3 and verse 4. You'll notice that God never indicates that humans would live on and on even after they die. He clearly said that they "will DIE." (Genesis 2:17; Gen.3:19) Is there anything there that mentions living on? Is there anything there that hints of a fiery demolition from which humans could never escape? Who was it that said that humans would really live on and never die? (Gen.3:4) So you see, if Satan's lie is recognized, we have an entirely different understanding of what happens to people when they die.

Yes, the people under the altar in heaven is allegorical. Just like the locusts in chapter 9 (or do you think they are literal?). Are there actually locusts that emerge from an abyss that look like horses ready for battle, with gold crowns, men's faces, women's hair, teeth like lions, iron breastplates and tails that sting like scorpions? Do you say "no"? Well neither are the "souls" under the altar in heaven literal.


I watched your flat earth video for over an hour. Will you do me the courtesy of going to a website that has all the answers that people can't get in other places, and all answers that are humanly possible in this system of things?

https://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=Soul


.

[Trump]

Yes, the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is allegorical. There is nothing in it that can logically be taken literally.

First we must recognize the fact that Jesus was telling this parable to make a point to the Pharisees, who were listening. (Luke 16:14) Since we have discussed what "Hades" means quite a bit on these threads, it is fairly clearly evident the "Hades" means mankind's grave, not a place where someone is tortured endlessly. So it's quite reasonable to accept the idea that Jesus was here telling an illustration, or, a story, with a deeper meaning than what most people seem to want to believe. Jesus wasn't teaching that there is really a place where people are burned alive. He was using allegory to illustrate some hard facts about the Pharisees.

(Is "hell" (Hades) literally within speaking distance of heaven so that such a real conversation could be carried on? Also, if the rich man were in a literal burning lake, how could Abraham really send Lazarus to cool his tongue with just a drop of water on the tip of his finger?)

Here is Jesus' point: The rich man stood for the self-important religious leaders who rejected Jesus and later killed him. Lazarus pictured the common people who accepted Jesus. The death of the rich man and of Lazarus represented a change in their condition or their situation before God. This change took place when Jesus fed the neglected Lazarus-like people spiritual food, which they weren't getting from their irresponsible religious leaders that just gave them crumbs of spiritual food. (See verse 21.) These people that listened to Jesus came into favor with the "Greater Abraham." God the Father. At the same time, the hypocritical religious leaders "died" with respect to having God's favor at all. Being cast off, they suffered torments when their evil works were exposed by Jesus and his followers. (Acts 7:51-57)

So, therefore, it can be understood that this story (similar to an Aesop fable) does NOT teach that some dead people are tortured in a literal hell-fire.

Abraham is not in the spirit realm. Where in the Bible is that said? In fact, Jesus said that no one went to heaven before he came to earth, and also that he will resurrect EVERYBODY "in the last day," which hasn't come yet. (John 3:13; John 6:44)


My point in mentioning Genesis 3:3,4 is a very important one. The belief in a "soul" or "spirit" that leaves the body at death and lives on, fully conscious, is not a teaching of God. It does not have any basis in the Scriptures. The whole idea is from the Devil, as is seen in Genesis 3 and verse 4. You'll notice that God never indicates that humans would live on and on even after they die. He clearly said that they "will DIE." (Genesis 2:17; Gen.3:19) Is there anything there that mentions living on? Is there anything there that hints of a fiery demolition from which humans could never escape? Who was it that said that humans would really live on and never die? (Gen.3:4) So you see, if Satan's lie is recognized, we have an entirely different understanding of what happens to people when they die.

Yes, the people under the altar in heaven is allegorical. Just like the locusts in chapter 9 (or do you think they are literal?). Are there actually locusts that emerge from an abyss that look like horses ready for battle, with gold crowns, men's faces, women's hair, teeth like lions, iron breastplates and tails that sting like scorpions? Do you say "no"? Well neither are the "souls" under the altar in heaven literal.


I watched your flat earth video for over an hour. Will you do me the courtesy of going to a website that has all the answers that people can't get in other places, and all answers that are humanly possible in this system of things?

https://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=Soul.

Of course I will read into that.

OK, got it. I have read all this before in books given to me by JW's. So you are a Jehovah's Witness, correct? Then I won't waste my time asking you questions that I already know your answers to, . like this one that's on your "all answers that are humanly possible in this system of things":

Myth: The Bible says that vegetation was created before the sun existed to support photosynthesis."Genesis 1:11, 16.

Fact: The Bible shows that the sun, one of the stars that make up the heavens, was created before vegetation. (Genesis 1:1) Diffused light from the sun reached the earths surface during the first day, or epoch, of creation. As the atmosphere cleared, by the third day of creation, the light was strong enough to support photosynthesis. (Genesis 1:3-5, 12, 13) Only later did the sun become distinctly visible from the surface of the earth."Genesis 1:16

You see that? What the Bible actually says is considered a 'myth', while what the Watchtower prophets say is considered as 'fact'. Where in the verses posted do they get: "As the atmosphere cleared, by the third day of creation, the light was strong enough to support photosynthesis. Only later did the sun become distinctly visible from the surface of the earth" ?

Regarding the soul, or hell, if the dead in hades, hell, grave know nothing, why would the Bible make so many references to it, especially Jesus?

It's like; "Beware you wicked people, because hell awaits you, you will no longer be able to do anything. Your life, your existence will be no more!" Like that's really going to help the wicked to change: "you're going to die, and be forgotten by everyone, even God!" you see what I mean? That's exactly what the Evolution-theory teaches, that we die, and that's the end of it.

Did Jesus know that 'the dead know nothing'? That their very existence ends in the grave? You think Jesus would have used hell if the body made of dust was who we are, and once we turn to dust again, the dead know nothing?

Thanks.

[JehovahsWitness]

Where in the verses posted do they get: "As the atmosphere cleared, by the third day of creation, the light was strong enough to support photosynthesis. Only later did the sun become distinctly visible from the surface of the earth" ?

Sometimes a verse might not specifically say something but a conclusion as to meaning can still be drawn using critical thinking skills while examing the context, the original langauge, using logic and a good dose of common sense.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[JehovahsWitness]

Regarding the soul, or hell, if the dead in hades, hell, grave know nothing, why would the Bible make so many references to it, especially Jesus?

Because death is part of the human experience. It is as Paul says mankinds "Last enemy" and it's elmination something the Messiah, promise from the Garden of Eden came to conquer.

That's exactly what the Evolution-theory teaches, that we die, and that's the end of it.

Well even a broken clock is right twice a day.

While it is true person ceases to exist at death and there is no "after life" (ie nothing survives of the person to continue consciouse existence elsewhere in another form). That's where the accuracy of an atheistic worldview ends because the bible says there is a hope for the dead.

Did Jesus know that 'the dead know nothing'?

It seems reasonable, being the Son of God that helped God in creating man, he (Jesus) would, yes.

That their very existence ends in the grave?

See above

You think Jesus would have used hell if the body made of dust was who we are, and once we turn to dust again, the dead know nothing?

Well of course "hell" is an English word, but if you are asking if Jesus would have known what makes up a human being and what happens to one once he (the person) dies, then yes. See above.







JW

[Trump]

Where in the verses posted do they get: "As the atmosphere cleared, by the third day of creation, the light was strong enough to support photosynthesis. Only later did the sun become distinctly visible from the surface of the earth" ?

Sometimes a verse might not specifically say something but a conclusion as to meaning can still be drawn using critical thinking skills while examing the context, the original langauge, using logic and a good dose of common sense.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

JW said: "original language, using logic and a good dose of common sense" you mean like this:

Myth: The Bible says that vegetation was created before the sun existed to support photosynthesis."Genesis 1:11, 16.

Fact: The Bible shows that the sun, one of the stars that make up the heavens, was created before vegetation. (Genesis 1:1) Diffused light from the sun reached the earths surface during the first day, or epoch, of creation. As the atmosphere cleared, by the third day of creation, the light was strong enough to support photosynthesis. (Genesis 1:3-5, 12, 13) Only later did the sun become distinctly visible from the surface of the earth."Genesis 1:16 ?

On hell;
Why refer to hell or the grave and to what the dead are doing in there if Jesus knows that they see nothing, hear nothing, do nothing and know nothing? (lord, I sound like Schulz on Hogan's Heroes) I guess he didn't have the Watchtower Prophets to explain this to him?

Hell
noun
noun: hell;
1. a place regarded in various religions as a spiritual realm of evil and suffering, often traditionally depicted as a place of perpetual fire beneath the earth where the wicked are punished after death.
synonyms:
the netherworld, the Inferno, the infernal regions, the abyss
a state or place of great suffering; an unbearable experience.
"I've been through hell"
synonyms:
a misery, torture, agony, a torment, a nightmare, an ordeal

And this is exactly how the Bible refers to hell: a place of misery, torture, agony, and torment, and you say it doesn't even exist? Obviously Jesus wasn't a Jehovah's Witness, or he would have known all this.

So let's see now, the Catholics say Jesus was a failure, failure on the cross;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvIrfp3qdNg

And JW's say he didn't know what he was talking about when he referred to the dead as if they could see, hear, feel torment, and talk to Abraham asking for a drop of water.
And Abraham you claim is just another name for God: "The Great Abraham"?

Where do you get this info from, not from the Bible that we here on Gods Flat Earth read? Do you have a 'special Bible' that eliminates nonsense like hell, the word God, and so on?

Thank you.

[JehovahsWitness]

And JW's say he didn't know what he was talking about when he referred to the dead as if they could see, hear, feel torment, and talk to Abraham asking for a drop of water.

Jehovah's Witnesses have never said Jesus "did not know what he was talking about" and we never will, that is merely your interpretation of our conclusions because we happen not be be literalists. We believe Jesus knew exactly what he was talking about, namely that he was speaking a parable and each element (including the "death") was symbolic of something*. You are free to disagree but that doesn't mean that we are obliged to accept your own literalist interpretation.

JW


* Death is often used metaphorically even today, we speak of someone we cut out of our lives as being "dead to us", or being in a profound sleep being "dead to the world" and we use the word death or dead or dying in many idiomatic expressions (see link below)
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/death

[JehovahsWitness]

Do you have a 'special Bible' that eliminates nonsense like hell [...]?

Thank you.

One doesn't need a "special bible" on just needs to read any translation correctly. Here is my earlier post on this topic in case you missed it

My thoughts on "hell"
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 948#843948

Here are some links if you really would like to learn more

What Is Hell? Is It a Place of Eternal Torment?
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... t-is-hell/

What Really Is Hell?
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2002521

HELL: Definition
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989234

What Did Jesus Teach About Hell?
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2008802

Who goes to hell?
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... s-to-hell/