Second Coming in the Sky?

[liamconnor]

Certain biblical authors talk of Christ returning from the sky: Acts and Paul.

Paul tells Christians that they will be caught up to meet him.


There is an obvious imaginative problem here: even if a figure should appear in the sky, that portion of sky will be visible from only so many miles. The number of people who could fly up to surround such a flying figure can only be so many; twenty, thirty?

At any rate, even during Paul's time people in Ephesus could not possibly see clouds in Thessalonia.


Did Paul believe that Jesus would literally return on clouds and therefore in one particular place in space? Or was Paul less interested in such literal details as he was in theological and apocalyptic precedents? Namely, Daniel's apocalypse, where

"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. (Dan 7:13 NAS)

Daniel clearly uses symbolism throughout much of the book.

Do the early Christians use symbolism also when writing of Jesus' return?

[onewithhim]

So how do you understand "every eye shall see him" in Revelation 1:7 (KJV)
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. ?

I don't believe those that "pierced him (Jesus) is to be taken literally because the people that stabbed Jesus, notably the Roman soldiers will have been long dead by the time of Christ's return. I think it means those that oppose his "brothers" (see Mat 25:40)

I understand it to mean "see" with ones "eye of understanding". In a similar way we say "I see" when someone has explained a point what we mean is not literally that we see something literally with our eyes (we usually see the same person before and afte the point has been explained) what we mean is "I understand" "I have grasped the point". When Jesus comes those that have opposed Jesus' people will understand the gravity of their situation and will "wail" or express their grief at their imminent end (compare Matthew 13:14)


Further reading
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989263#h=16

Thank you JehovahsWitness, the verses you have given me proves your point, not even close to the context Revelation 1:7 was given.

Also see Acts 1:9-11

We have to be careful not to use the Bible to justify our own personal beliefs, but use it to make sure we understand the message given.

I was hoping you'd read my post #40. I think I scripturally supported my statement fairly well concerning your query about Revelation 1:7. It also agrees with what JW is saying.

[onewithhim]

The spirit is not corruptible, or perishable so according to your understanding, what would your quoted verses mean? especially verse 53?

1Corrinthians 15: 52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: Death has been swallowed up in victory.

We don't HAVE a spirit being inside us that leaves us at death and goes somewhere else, to consciously keep living. "The dead are conscious of nothing." (Ecclesiastes 9:5) The bodies Paul talks about are physical bodies and spirit bodies---non-physical. Paul was explaining that when those early Christians died and then were resurrected they would CHANGE and no longer have their physical bodies, which are corruptible, but they would have spirit bodies that are imperishable. As such they will be able to live in heaven, where flesh cannot go. (I Corinth.15:50)

Thank you again onewithhim

Our physical body, this flesh is made up of dust (genesis 2:7) which contain all kinds of metals. Are you saying we are no different than a robot, other then in complexity?

Why would God resurrect the body if he will not use any of it for as you say no flesh can enter Heaven, and since he is turning us into spirit?

What I'm asking is why turn the 'body/flesh' into spirit, .. wouldn't just making a spirit make more sense? Is there anything that God will salvage from this body that he will implement into the spirit-body?

LOL. Of course I don't mean that we are no different than a robot that is made of metal! The Bible says that God made Adam from the DUST OF THE GROUND. We are composed of every element that is found in the ground. (Genesis 2:7)

God's power will resurrect dead people back to the earth, even if they had been totally incinerated or evaporated or broken down gradually by bugs, worms and the weather. He remembers every detail about every person who ever lived. His recollection is better than any video tape could be.

I find it hard to follow your allusions to spirits who will live in heaven, because I believe that most humans will be brought back to life here on Earth to live here forever. We will all have physical bodies, and Jehovah can remember every person and how that person was made up, what his personality was like, what his thoughts were, what he looked like---everything. Our final destination is not heaven. It is here on the earth, just like Adam was made to live on the earth. That was God's plan and He hasn't changed His mind. (Isaiah 45:18)

Thanks again onewithhim

So you don't believe we have a spirit that operates this body of dust? Or that we can invite Gods Spirit, or demons into this house of flesh made of dust?

How do you understand demonic possession, like the ones Jesus cast out of men? Was that just mental illness and Jesus removed the tumor, and 'casting out demons' was just symbolic?

The spirit that operates this body of dust is the life-force that caused Adam to become a living soul. It is the Father's Spirit. This spirit keeps us alive. It is not some "mini-me" that consciously leaves the body at death. It is just God's power, so to speak, that "returns to Him" just like a current of electricity "returns" to the Source of its power when a switch is flipped off.

Demonic possession is a human being possessed by spirit persons---they are already persons who were CREATED as spirit persons, and they decided to rebel against God. They are not dead people.

[Trump]

Thank you JehovahsWitness, the verses you have given me proves your point [...]

You're most welcome, if you have any further questions or would like any other information feel free to ask.

Have an excellent day,

JW

Yes I have a question; why did you leave the rest of my message out?

Thank you JehovahsWitness, the verses you have given me proves your point, not even close to the context Revelation 1:7 was given.

Also see Acts 1:9-11

We have to be careful not to use the Bible to justify our own personal beliefs, but use it to make sure we understand the message given.

Thanks.

[Trump]

The spirit is not corruptible, or perishable so according to your understanding, what would your quoted verses mean? especially verse 53?

1Corrinthians 15: 52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: Death has been swallowed up in victory.

We don't HAVE a spirit being inside us that leaves us at death and goes somewhere else, to consciously keep living. "The dead are conscious of nothing." (Ecclesiastes 9:5) The bodies Paul talks about are physical bodies and spirit bodies---non-physical. Paul was explaining that when those early Christians died and then were resurrected they would CHANGE and no longer have their physical bodies, which are corruptible, but they would have spirit bodies that are imperishable. As such they will be able to live in heaven, where flesh cannot go. (I Corinth.15:50)

Thank you again onewithhim

Our physical body, this flesh is made up of dust (genesis 2:7) which contain all kinds of metals. Are you saying we are no different than a robot, other then in complexity?

Why would God resurrect the body if he will not use any of it for as you say no flesh can enter Heaven, and since he is turning us into spirit?

What I'm asking is why turn the 'body/flesh' into spirit, .. wouldn't just making a spirit make more sense? Is there anything that God will salvage from this body that he will implement into the spirit-body?

LOL. Of course I don't mean that we are no different than a robot that is made of metal! The Bible says that God made Adam from the DUST OF THE GROUND. We are composed of every element that is found in the ground. (Genesis 2:7)

God's power will resurrect dead people back to the earth, even if they had been totally incinerated or evaporated or broken down gradually by bugs, worms and the weather. He remembers every detail about every person who ever lived. His recollection is better than any video tape could be.

I find it hard to follow your allusions to spirits who will live in heaven, because I believe that most humans will be brought back to life here on Earth to live here forever. We will all have physical bodies, and Jehovah can remember every person and how that person was made up, what his personality was like, what his thoughts were, what he looked like---everything. Our final destination is not heaven. It is here on the earth, just like Adam was made to live on the earth. That was God's plan and He hasn't changed His mind. (Isaiah 45:18)

Thanks again onewithhim

So you don't believe we have a spirit that operates this body of dust? Or that we can invite Gods Spirit, or demons into this house of flesh made of dust?

How do you understand demonic possession, like the ones Jesus cast out of men? Was that just mental illness and Jesus removed the tumor, and 'casting out demons' was just symbolic?

The spirit that operates this body of dust is the life-force that caused Adam to become a living soul. It is the Father's Spirit. This spirit keeps us alive. It is not some "mini-me" that consciously leaves the body at death. It is just God's power, so to speak, that "returns to Him" just like a current of electricity "returns" to the Source of its power when a switch is flipped off.

John 4:24
God is Spirit (electric power?), and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.

Demonic possession is a human being possessed by spirit persons---they are already persons who were CREATED as spirit persons, and they decided to rebel against God. They are not dead people.

Demonic possession is a human being possessed by spirit persons, .. like "mini-me's"?

Just curious, .. so why couldn't God make a body out of dust (iron, zinc, magnesium etc. like a robot) and breathe a mini-me into its nostrils, which takes possession of that pile of dust and makes it come alive and be a living being?

Thanks again.

[Trump]

Certain biblical authors talk of Christ returning from the sky: Acts and Paul.

Paul tells Christians that they will be caught up to meet him.


There is an obvious imaginative problem here: even if a figure should appear in the sky, that portion of sky will be visible from only so many miles. The number of people who could fly up to surround such a flying figure can only be so many; twenty, thirty?

At any rate, even during Paul's time people in Ephesus could not possibly see clouds in Thessalonia.


Did Paul believe that Jesus would literally return on clouds and therefore in one particular place in space? Or was Paul less interested in such literal details as he was in theological and apocalyptic precedents? Namely, Daniel's apocalypse, where

"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. (Dan 7:13 NAS)

Daniel clearly uses symbolism throughout much of the book.

Do the early Christians use symbolism also when writing of Jesus' return?

Well true, there seems to be a problem from a globe-earth perspective, but not so impossible from the actual Flat Earth perspective, with a little help from the Lord: "and their eyes shall be opened". After all, this will be That Day for those who been earnestly waiting for it, right?

Did you actually read my post #7?

I just did:

Acts 1:11 tells us that Jesus will "come in the same manner as you have beheld him going into the sky." How was that? He was OBSCURED by the clouds. They couldn't see him any more.

When he returns it will be an event that he negotiates from heaven, therefore invisibly. Nations will "see" him with eyes of understanding. Jesus said that people can look at something but do not really "see" or, understand. "I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do NOT see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." (Matt.13:13, NASB) When he returns people will absolutely "see" that he has come to put an end to all wickedness. They will all understand, though they don't literally see him with their eyes.

Jesus' co-rulers will not be visible to anyone from the ground. When they are called to meet him in the air, they will be invisible, in spirit bodies, as Paul explained in I Corinthians 15: 40,42-53. There is no problem for Jesus to welcome any person from any part of the world.

So what about Revelation 1:7 (KJV)
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. ..?

I just wrote about this on one of these threads. I can't remember where. I quoted some scriptures that show that people can "see" with understanding. If someone explains something to me, I might say, "Oh, I see." That is the meaning of Revelation 1:7. Everyone on earth will understand what is happening, who it is that has "come" and that he comes in Jehovah's name.

"I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled which says, 'You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; you will keep on seeing, but will not perceive. For the heart of this people has become dull, with their ears they scarcely hear, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they would see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and UNDERSTAND with their heart and return, and I would heal them.'" (Matthew 13:13-15, NASB)

"Seeing" certainly means "understanding," as those verses show.

Sorry I missed this one, I did answer the following one you wrote, my apologies.

So you say this:
Revelations 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

means this:

onewithhim wrote: Revelation 1:7. Everyone on earth will understand what is happening, who it is that has "come" and that he comes in Jehovah's name.

Maybe in Greek, which I don't speak, but not in English.

[onewithhim]

The spirit is not corruptible, or perishable so according to your understanding, what would your quoted verses mean? especially verse 53?

1Corrinthians 15: 52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: Death has been swallowed up in victory.

We don't HAVE a spirit being inside us that leaves us at death and goes somewhere else, to consciously keep living. "The dead are conscious of nothing." (Ecclesiastes 9:5) The bodies Paul talks about are physical bodies and spirit bodies---non-physical. Paul was explaining that when those early Christians died and then were resurrected they would CHANGE and no longer have their physical bodies, which are corruptible, but they would have spirit bodies that are imperishable. As such they will be able to live in heaven, where flesh cannot go. (I Corinth.15:50)

Thank you again onewithhim

Our physical body, this flesh is made up of dust (genesis 2:7) which contain all kinds of metals. Are you saying we are no different than a robot, other then in complexity?

Why would God resurrect the body if he will not use any of it for as you say no flesh can enter Heaven, and since he is turning us into spirit?

What I'm asking is why turn the 'body/flesh' into spirit, .. wouldn't just making a spirit make more sense? Is there anything that God will salvage from this body that he will implement into the spirit-body?

LOL. Of course I don't mean that we are no different than a robot that is made of metal! The Bible says that God made Adam from the DUST OF THE GROUND. We are composed of every element that is found in the ground. (Genesis 2:7)

God's power will resurrect dead people back to the earth, even if they had been totally incinerated or evaporated or broken down gradually by bugs, worms and the weather. He remembers every detail about every person who ever lived. His recollection is better than any video tape could be.

I find it hard to follow your allusions to spirits who will live in heaven, because I believe that most humans will be brought back to life here on Earth to live here forever. We will all have physical bodies, and Jehovah can remember every person and how that person was made up, what his personality was like, what his thoughts were, what he looked like---everything. Our final destination is not heaven. It is here on the earth, just like Adam was made to live on the earth. That was God's plan and He hasn't changed His mind. (Isaiah 45:18)

Thanks again onewithhim

So you don't believe we have a spirit that operates this body of dust? Or that we can invite Gods Spirit, or demons into this house of flesh made of dust?

How do you understand demonic possession, like the ones Jesus cast out of men? Was that just mental illness and Jesus removed the tumor, and 'casting out demons' was just symbolic?

The spirit that operates this body of dust is the life-force that caused Adam to become a living soul. It is the Father's Spirit. This spirit keeps us alive. It is not some "mini-me" that consciously leaves the body at death. It is just God's power, so to speak, that "returns to Him" just like a current of electricity "returns" to the Source of its power when a switch is flipped off.

John 4:24
God is Spirit (electric power?), and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.

Demonic possession is a human being possessed by spirit persons---they are already persons who were CREATED as spirit persons, and they decided to rebel against God. They are not dead people.

Demonic possession is a human being possessed by spirit persons, .. like "mini-me's"?

Just curious, .. so why couldn't God make a body out of dust (iron, zinc, magnesium etc. like a robot) and breathe a mini-me into its nostrils, which takes possession of that pile of dust and makes it come alive and be a living being?

Thanks again.

No, demons would not be "mini-me"s, because they are not the person they are possessing. Are you really aware of the things you say? I think about the old expression of someone "pulling my leg." Some things are downright comical.

To answer your last question---I don't know why God wouldn't do that, but He didn't. All he breathed into the first human was "the breath of life," and Adam came to be a living soul.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 55 by Trump]

I don't get your point.

I carefully backed up my point with clear, reasonable examples from the scriptures. You didn't comment on the very relevant explanation.

.

[JehovahsWitness]

Yes I have a question; why did you leave the rest of my message out?

Thank you JehovahsWitness, the verses you have given me proves your point, not even close to the context Revelation 1:7 was given.

Also see Acts 1:9-11

We have to be careful not to use the Bible to justify our own personal beliefs, but use it to make sure we understand the message given.

Thanks.

I am not obliged to address every point made to me, indeed if I did I would have little time for anything else. You said that the points I made were not in context but offered no justification to support your objection so I decided it was unworthy of my time. Should you like to support your response with anything more than axiom I would be more than happy to reconsider my decision.

As for your request that I "see" Acts 1:9-11 I did. Was there anything you would like to say about it? Again, since you did little but bring it to my attention making no point whatsoever, I see nothing to respond to.

Your final point was, if it were not offered as a backhanded accusation, is something i agree with but was not relevant nor did it add to any argumentation on your part above and beyond the generally understood point to approach examination as free of bias as possible. Again nothing worthy of my writing out a response.


Hope that helps, have a good day,


JW

[Trump]

Thanks again onewithhim

So you don't believe we have a spirit that operates this body of dust? Or that we can invite Gods Spirit, or demons into this house of flesh made of dust?

How do you understand demonic possession, like the ones Jesus cast out of men? Was that just mental illness and Jesus removed the tumor, and 'casting out demons' was just symbolic?

The spirit that operates this body of dust is the life-force that caused Adam to become a living soul. It is the Father's Spirit. This spirit keeps us alive. It is not some "mini-me" that consciously leaves the body at death. It is just God's power, so to speak, that "returns to Him" just like a current of electricity "returns" to the Source of its power when a switch is flipped off.

John 4:24
God is Spirit (electric power?), and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.

Demonic possession is a human being possessed by spirit persons---they are already persons who were CREATED as spirit persons, and they decided to rebel against God. They are not dead people.

Demonic possession is a human being possessed by spirit persons, .. like "mini-me's"?

Just curious, .. so why couldn't God make a body out of dust (iron, zinc, magnesium etc. like a robot) and breathe a mini-me into its nostrils, which takes possession of that pile of dust and makes it come alive and be a living being?

Thanks again.[/quote]

No, demons would not be "mini-me"s, because they are not the person they are possessing.[/quote]

Right, they are mini-me's spirit-persons without a body. Why wouldn't 'mini-me' fit? I mean look, please?

According to the Bible, the human body was created out of dirt, including metals like a robot. It lay there without any personality just as we see a dead person today, right?

Are you really aware of the things you say? I think about the old expression of someone "pulling my leg." Some things are downright comical.

You're the one who came up with mini-me, I just went with it.

To answer your last question---I don't know why God wouldn't do that, but He didn't. All he breathed into the first human was "the breath of life," and Adam came to be a living soul.

So God, who is Holy and Spirit breathed into a pile of dust "the breath of life" and Adam came to be a living soul as you said.

What exactly IS that 'breath of life' coming from the Creator of life Himself? If it was just something like electricity, man has tried that on many dead bodies, (Frankenstein story was one example) yet no "living soul", .. right?

So with NO pun intended, what else can that "breath of life" be other than a mini-me? A basic program from the Great Program, the Life Himself, The Spirit as you explained to me in Greek, that One and Only Conscious Infinite "I Am" whose very first creation was "The Word" (not something like electricity) but a set of strict rules which all languages follow.

Look at all creatures God created on this earth, they all have bodies of dust just as we humans have, which sit there like a rock would, and each with a different individual program/spirit/breath of life which is different in each species, different intelligence or gifts as the Bible says:

Genesis 3:3 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, Has God indeed said, You shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

I know, "don't go there", it's not Biblical! But what I say IS Biblical, check it out yourself:

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.
4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.

what would: "seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase mean other than that man will reach intellectual heights like never before?

Would of A.I. programming make any sense in the past 6,000 years other then it does now in these last days?

Were we not created in God and His son Words image? Are we not allowed to read the Bible with the knowledge of today?

God said: shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end

Until the time of the end? The end of what? What will be the sign when God sees we are ready to understand? It's right there in the same sentence.

I sure don't want to end up like them 5 foolish virgins, especially now that the "oil" is flowing like never before, where I can look up any info on anything in seconds on Google alone, .. right?

[Trump]

Yes I have a question; why did you leave the rest of my message out?

Thank you JehovahsWitness, the verses you have given me proves your point, not even close to the context Revelation 1:7 was given.

Also see Acts 1:9-11

We have to be careful not to use the Bible to justify our own personal beliefs, but use it to make sure we understand the message given.

Thanks.

I am not obliged to address every point made to me, indeed if I did I would have little time for anything else. You said that the points I made were not in context but offered no justification to support your objection so I decided it was unworthy of my time. Should you like to support your response with anything more than axiom I would be more than happy to reconsider my decision.

I am truly humbled that you would reconsider your decision with more than this; backhanded accusation as you say:

Thank you JehovahsWitness, the verses you have given me proves your point [...]

You're most welcome, if you have any further questions or would like any other information feel free to ask.

Have an excellent day,

JW

As for your request that I "see" Acts 1:9-11 I did. Was there anything you would like to say about it? Again, since you did little but bring it to my attention making no point whatsoever, I see nothing to respond to.

Yes sir, I was referring to this: "This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven. referring to claims of His invisible appearance.

Your final point was, if it were not offered as a backhanded accusation, is something i agree with but was not relevant nor did it add to any argumentation on your part above and beyond the generally understood point to approach examination as free of bias as possible.

Again nothing worthy of my writing out a response.


Hope that helps, have a good day,


JW

Yes, that helps.

Thank you.