Evangelicals vs. Jehovah's Witnesses

[Elijah John]

Evangelicals often call Jehovah's Witnesses, a "cult" and not Christian.

Jehovah's Witnesses, seem to consider Roman Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox etc, "not-Christian" (JWs please correct me if I'm wrong on this)

Question for debate, why can't all of these groups rightly be considered "Christian"?

And part two of this OP question is directed primarily to Evangelicals, why don't you consider JWs to be Christian?

[Claire Evans]

You reject some of the Bible!

That's so odd another poster said the following of JWs.

"Sola Scriptura" like the Evangelicals.

Sola scriptura is a Christian theological doctrine which holds that the Christian Scriptures are the sole infallible rule of faith and practice.

So which is it? How can a group be called both? It is what happens when both accusers don't have faith in scriptures like 2 Timothy 3:16. Yet the accused does.

Do JWs reject parts of the Bible or do they "hold that the Christian Scriptures are the sole infallible rule of faith and practice"? Please post all the scriptures that JWs reject.

(This should be interesting)

I'm sounding like a stuck record: You do not believe in the empty tomb account which contradicts the gospels!

We DO believe in the empty tomb! Pay attention.


.

But you contradict yourself! If you believe in the empty tomb story, which says Jesus' body was missing, then what happened to it??

Do you agree with me about the WTS and their covering up of paedophilia? Do you agree that the scriptures support that the world will end?

Peter 3:10 tells us: “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.�

Matthew 24:3 - And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

O.K. I do not contradict myself. There is not one person on this planet that can tell what happened to Jesus' physical body after he was resurrected. Jehovah took care of matters. Why should we be concerned? The fact of the matter is: Jesus rose again from the dead. I believe that.

What? The Bible said His physical body resurrected! Are you suggesting that Jehovah vaporized Jesus' body? That it may have been stolen? By rising in His physical body, people would see Him and be convinced. If Jesus just rose from a spirit, why did He have holes in His hands? Was that not proof that His physical body had resurrected?

Let us look further:

It is obvious from Jesus' own words in John 2:19-21 that He would raise Himself from the dead:

"Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." 20 The Jews therefore said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body."

What else do you think this means?

"Touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have," (Luke 24:39)

He denied He was a spirit but was in a physical form.

I don't agree that the WT covers up pedophilia. They won't turn over anyone's name who hasn't been convicted by the testimony of at least two witnesses. That protects a person who is actually innocent.

The WTS had admitted culpability. They knew they were breaking the law:

A ministerial servant by the name of Gordon Leighton admitted to sexually assaulting a child in the congregation to a judicial committee. . So no false accusations there. Yet still the elders refused to give testimony when Leighton retracted his statement that he was guilty. They KNEW he was a paedophile but was covering up for him.

http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/elders- ... e-cover-up

Please address my specific comments.

No, I do not believe the world will literally end. Peter did not speak about the planet being destroyed, but only "the ungodly men," as In Noah's day. (2Peter 3:7)

That suggests that the ungodly people remain on earth to be destroyed. So it's not only the ungodly men who will be destroyed. The earth, consumed by fire, will be, too.

Peter compared this to Noah's flood. God came to destroy the world to punish the ungodly. He is saying the earth will be destroyed again to wipe out sinners.

2 Peter 3:10

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Is this a place where believers of Christ shall live?

Jesus didn't say the world would end, and neither did his followers. "The end of the world," as translated by some translation committees, actually should be translated, "the conclusion of the system of things," or "the end of the AGE." My evangelical mother used to tell me that. It is fairly well known among evangelicals and "born-agains." What version do you use? (The New American Bible says, "...of the AGE." So does the New International Version. And the New American Standard Bible.


Obviously the meaning must be the end of the world as we have known it, with its corruption and suffering. Not that the planet itself will come to an end.

Ecclesiastes 1:4

The age does refer to the age of grace since we have been living in since Jesus died for our sins. However, the end of that age means judgment and scriptures have said the destruction of the ungodly comes hand in hand with the destruction of the earth.

To support that the earth will be destroyed, let us look at this:

24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
24:36 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Pass away means no longer existing. Heaven should rather be translated as sky. That means the universe.

Ecclesiastes 1:4

It's got to do with translation. This is the Hebrew translation of "forever":

lə-‘�-w-l�m

That can also mean a long duration:

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5769.htm

To support the "long duration" argument, we have Isaiah 42:14

14. I have long time holden my peace


In the Hebrew translation, long duration is synonymous with eternity:


hechéshëytiy mëôläm acháriysh et'aPäq KaYôlëdäh ef'eh eSHom w'esh'af yächad

http://qbible.com/hebrew-old-testament/isaiah/42.html

The Bible does not say that Jesus' physical body was resurrected.

I have shown you what the Bible says & have quoted it frequently. (I Corinthians 15:45; I Peter 3:18,19)

Jesus went through a locked door, after which he appeared to the disciples and showed them his wounds. He obviously materialized a physical body so they could see him. I know this isn't going to impress you one iota, and you will not agree with it, but I have a comment for other people here:

At Luke 24:39 Jesus appeared, suddenly, in the disciples' midst, and they were frightened because they thought they were seeing an apparition. He calmed them by assuring them they weren't seeing things, and told them "I have flesh and bones." Notice that he did not say he had blood. Usually a person says that a physical person is "flesh and blood." But he didn't because he didn't have any! Didn't he pour it out in behalf of mankind's sins? Why would he take it back? He would not. Therefore, he was not a regular man, with blood flowing in his veins. He had merely materialized a body so he could appear to them. If you read the account in that chapter about the man the disciples saw on the road to Emmaus, you would see that they didn't recognize Jesus! They didn't recognize him until he had spent some time with them and he told them many things. Thus, it is pretty clear that he was not raised with the same body he had before his death.


The destruction of the earth will not happen. Only the destruction of "ungodly men."

I have explained how we know this.

Concerning the pedophilia problem you describe, that so-called brother RETRACTED his guilty statement. According to the Bible, a victim must have at least one other person come forward to corroborate his or her testimony. When he retracted his statement, that left only the victim's testimony. The Bible's rule had to be followed. The parents of the victim had the responsibility to take their problem to the police. Why didn't they? If they did, good. The problem was taken care of. If not, it's on them. The WTS can't be blamed for following a Bible rule. I can tell you this: You can be sure that that "brother" would never be left alone with children again.

So, Claire, can we end this back-and-forth-without-getting-anywhere discussion?

Yes, we can, but I'd like to make a final note:

1.) Leighton retracted his statement because he was afraid of jail, not because he was innocent.

2.) Jesus denied He was a spirit: "Touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have," (Luke 24:39)

3.) We see that "earth forever" actually means, in Hebrew, a long duration.

4.) The man didn't recognize Jesus because Jesus died in such a way that He was unrecognizable.

5.) You have no proper explanation what happened to Jesus' body.

This is why I am not satisfied but we can agree to disagree.

[onewithhim]

It's interesting, I have to say, that you cling to certain scriptures to make your point, (even though other scriptures contradict your viewpoint) and yet you actually do not think that the Bible is entirely inspired by God. You say that it is PARTLY inspired by God and partly by pagans and Gnostics.

So with that in view, we would never reach a meeting of the minds.

Well, it's good we can stop going round and round.

[onewithhim]

You had once asked, Claire, if I could provide the questions for Baptism that Jehovah's Witnesses are asked before they get baptized. There are three parts with 32-37 questions in each part. I will list a few, but if you want to see them all they are in the book Organized to Do God's Will, and any one of JWs could show it to you.


1) Who is the true God?
2) What are some of Jehovah's outstanding qualities?
3) What terms does the Bible use to help us understand some aspects of Jehovah's authority?
4) What does it mean to give Jehovah exclusive devotion? Why does he alone deserve such devotion?
5) How should we view and treat God's personal name?
6) Why is it important for us to use God's personal name in worship?
7) How will Jehovah God sanctify his name? How can we have a share in this?
8) Why would it be wrong for us to make an image of God or to attempt to worship him through the use of images?
9) What does it mean for a person to dedicate himself to Jehovah? Have you made your personal dedication to Jehovah in prayer?
10) Who is Jesus Christ?
11) What is Jesus' position in relation to Jehovah God, and what authority has Jehovah given him?
12) Why did Jesus come to earth and die a sacrificial death?
13) Why do we need the ransom, and how does it affect you personally?
14) What is the holy spirit, and what has been accomplished by means of it?
15) How does holy spirit operate for our benefit today?
16) What is the Kingdom of God?
17) What blessings will Kingdom rule bring for the earth and for mankind?


And that's just about a 6th of the questions. It shows you, if nothing else, that to answer all those questions in such a way as to get the go-ahead to get baptized, you have to have thought about these things long and hard and agree with all of it in a deeper-than-surface manner.

[Claire Evans]

You had once asked, Claire, if I could provide the questions for Baptism that Jehovah's Witnesses are asked before they get baptized. There are three parts with 32-37 questions in each part. I will list a few, but if you want to see them all they are in the book Organized to Do God's Will, and any one of JWs could show it to you.


1) Who is the true God?
2) What are some of Jehovah's outstanding qualities?
3) What terms does the Bible use to help us understand some aspects of Jehovah's authority?
4) What does it mean to give Jehovah exclusive devotion? Why does he alone deserve such devotion?
5) How should we view and treat God's personal name?
6) Why is it important for us to use God's personal name in worship?
7) How will Jehovah God sanctify his name? How can we have a share in this?
8) Why would it be wrong for us to make an image of God or to attempt to worship him through the use of images?
9) What does it mean for a person to dedicate himself to Jehovah? Have you made your personal dedication to Jehovah in prayer?
10) Who is Jesus Christ?
11) What is Jesus' position in relation to Jehovah God, and what authority has Jehovah given him?
12) Why did Jesus come to earth and die a sacrificial death?
13) Why do we need the ransom, and how does it affect you personally?
14) What is the holy spirit, and what has been accomplished by means of it?
15) How does holy spirit operate for our benefit today?
16) What is the Kingdom of God?
17) What blessings will Kingdom rule bring for the earth and for mankind?


And that's just about a 6th of the questions. It shows you, if nothing else, that to answer all those questions in such a way as to get the go-ahead to get baptized, you have to have thought about these things long and hard and agree with all of it in a deeper-than-surface manner.

Regarding number 8, do you believe crucifixes are not right? Should we have them in churches?

[onewithhim]

You had once asked, Claire, if I could provide the questions for Baptism that Jehovah's Witnesses are asked before they get baptized. There are three parts with 32-37 questions in each part. I will list a few, but if you want to see them all they are in the book Organized to Do God's Will, and any one of JWs could show it to you.


1) Who is the true God?
2) What are some of Jehovah's outstanding qualities?
3) What terms does the Bible use to help us understand some aspects of Jehovah's authority?
4) What does it mean to give Jehovah exclusive devotion? Why does he alone deserve such devotion?
5) How should we view and treat God's personal name?
6) Why is it important for us to use God's personal name in worship?
7) How will Jehovah God sanctify his name? How can we have a share in this?
8) Why would it be wrong for us to make an image of God or to attempt to worship him through the use of images?
9) What does it mean for a person to dedicate himself to Jehovah? Have you made your personal dedication to Jehovah in prayer?
10) Who is Jesus Christ?
11) What is Jesus' position in relation to Jehovah God, and what authority has Jehovah given him?
12) Why did Jesus come to earth and die a sacrificial death?
13) Why do we need the ransom, and how does it affect you personally?
14) What is the holy spirit, and what has been accomplished by means of it?
15) How does holy spirit operate for our benefit today?
16) What is the Kingdom of God?
17) What blessings will Kingdom rule bring for the earth and for mankind?


And that's just about a 6th of the questions. It shows you, if nothing else, that to answer all those questions in such a way as to get the go-ahead to get baptized, you have to have thought about these things long and hard and agree with all of it in a deeper-than-surface manner.

Regarding number 8, do you believe crucifixes are not right? Should we have them in churches?

There's been a discussion on this in another thread. But anyway, yes, I believe that crucifixes are not right, and they are (1) disrespectful to the living Jesus, and (2) are considered idols because they are used in worship.