Evangelicals vs. Jehovah's Witnesses

[Elijah John]

Evangelicals often call Jehovah's Witnesses, a "cult" and not Christian.

Jehovah's Witnesses, seem to consider Roman Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox etc, "not-Christian" (JWs please correct me if I'm wrong on this)

Question for debate, why can't all of these groups rightly be considered "Christian"?

And part two of this OP question is directed primarily to Evangelicals, why don't you consider JWs to be Christian?

[Claire Evans]

The problem is that you refuse to see the context of John. John said to close the doors to anti-Christs but JWS close to the door to disfellowshipped people who must be deemed anti-Christs.

So don't ask me again the question about John again. I don't think you can bear the thought that you may be wrong about the context.

Because you're stuck in a loop and you are not reading what every JW has been typing. You keep making false accusations over and over. Someone being disfellowshipped doesn't make them an anti-christ but they are headed that way by refusing to follow Jesus Christ. One doesn't discipline someone after they have become an anti-christ. No, you hope they will come to their sense way before that.

Let's break this down step by step. I keep addressing the context but you keep ignoring my questions. Because even though you don't believe me, the context has already be taken into account. There are other scriptures that explain your concern. (1 Cor. 5:6, 11-13, 1 Cor. 6:9, 10, Acts 3:19, 1 Pet. 1:14-16, Heb. 12:7-11)

What makes a person an anti-christ?

John says those who ought to be shunned are Anti-Christs:


7 I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Watch out that you do not lose what we[a] have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11 Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.

If you shun someone, it is because they are an anti-Christ. It's there in the scripture.

[onewithhim]

TO CLAIRE EVANS:

You say that as long as we have the earth there will be death. Could you support that statement with Scripture? Do you not agree that when Adam was created he was created to live forever on the earth, provided he didn't choose to disobey God? If he had respected Jehovah and obeyed Him, Adam would still be here. As long as humans would've obeyed God, there would have been no death. All humans would still be here on Earth. So why do you say as long as we have the earth there will be death?

CLAIRE EVANS ANSWERS:

The Adam and Eve story is pagan. It's not Hebrew but Sumerian. So as long as we have mortal bodies, which is bound to this earth, we shall have death.



[/quote]
All right, your statement there wraps up this discussion for me. We can't talk Scriptures when you don't believe the Bible was inspired by God. The very foundation of everything in the Bible is called by you "pagan." Anything you say is therefore based on a differing premise from most of us.

This thread has gotten way off-course from the original question. We were to compare Evangelicals with Jehovah's Witnesses. What was your final word on that?

[onewithhim]

You reject some of the Bible!

That's so odd another poster said the following of JWs.

"Sola Scriptura" like the Evangelicals.

Sola scriptura is a Christian theological doctrine which holds that the Christian Scriptures are the sole infallible rule of faith and practice.

So which is it? How can a group be called both? It is what happens when both accusers don't have faith in scriptures like 2 Timothy 3:16. Yet the accused does.

Do JWs reject parts of the Bible or do they "hold that the Christian Scriptures are the sole infallible rule of faith and practice"? Please post all the scriptures that JWs reject.

(This should be interesting)

I'm sounding like a stuck record: You do not believe in the empty tomb account which contradicts the gospels!

We DO believe in the empty tomb! Pay attention.


.

[Claire Evans]

TO CLAIRE EVANS:

You say that as long as we have the earth there will be death. Could you support that statement with Scripture? Do you not agree that when Adam was created he was created to live forever on the earth, provided he didn't choose to disobey God? If he had respected Jehovah and obeyed Him, Adam would still be here. As long as humans would've obeyed God, there would have been no death. All humans would still be here on Earth. So why do you say as long as we have the earth there will be death?

CLAIRE EVANS ANSWERS:

The Adam and Eve story is pagan. It's not Hebrew but Sumerian. So as long as we have mortal bodies, which is bound to this earth, we shall have death.

All right, your statement there wraps up this discussion for me. We can't talk Scriptures when you don't believe the Bible was inspired by God. The very foundation of everything in the Bible is called by you "pagan." Anything you say is therefore based on a differing premise from most of us.



This thread has gotten way off-course from the original question. We were to compare Evangelicals with Jehovah's Witnesses. What was your final word on that?

The Adam and Eve story is not meant for discussion here. However, if you do your research, you will see I'm right.

Well, aren't we comparing evangelical beliefs to those of the Jehovah's Witnesses?

[Claire Evans]

You reject some of the Bible!

That's so odd another poster said the following of JWs.

"Sola Scriptura" like the Evangelicals.

Sola scriptura is a Christian theological doctrine which holds that the Christian Scriptures are the sole infallible rule of faith and practice.

So which is it? How can a group be called both? It is what happens when both accusers don't have faith in scriptures like 2 Timothy 3:16. Yet the accused does.

Do JWs reject parts of the Bible or do they "hold that the Christian Scriptures are the sole infallible rule of faith and practice"? Please post all the scriptures that JWs reject.

(This should be interesting)

I'm sounding like a stuck record: You do not believe in the empty tomb account which contradicts the gospels!

We DO believe in the empty tomb! Pay attention.


.

But you contradict yourself! If you believe in the empty tomb story, which says Jesus' body was missing, then what happened to it??

Do you agree with me about the WTS and their covering up of paedophilia? Do you agree that the scriptures support that the world will end?

Peter 3:10 tells us: “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.�

Matthew 24:3 - And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

[onewithhim]

TO CLAIRE EVANS:

You say that as long as we have the earth there will be death. Could you support that statement with Scripture? Do you not agree that when Adam was created he was created to live forever on the earth, provided he didn't choose to disobey God? If he had respected Jehovah and obeyed Him, Adam would still be here. As long as humans would've obeyed God, there would have been no death. All humans would still be here on Earth. So why do you say as long as we have the earth there will be death?

CLAIRE EVANS ANSWERS:

The Adam and Eve story is pagan. It's not Hebrew but Sumerian. So as long as we have mortal bodies, which is bound to this earth, we shall have death.

All right, your statement there wraps up this discussion for me. We can't talk Scriptures when you don't believe the Bible was inspired by God. The very foundation of everything in the Bible is called by you "pagan." Anything you say is therefore based on a differing premise from most of us.



This thread has gotten way off-course from the original question. We were to compare Evangelicals with Jehovah's Witnesses. What was your final word on that?

The Adam and Eve story is not meant for discussion here. However, if you do your research, you will see I'm right.

Well, aren't we comparing evangelical beliefs to those of the Jehovah's Witnesses?

I was raised with evangelical beliefs and from what I know, they don't believe that Adam and Eve were mythical and/or pagan. I think they accept Adam and Eve's story as literal. So, no, you haven't been comparing JW beliefs with the evangelicals'.


.

[onewithhim]

You reject some of the Bible!

That's so odd another poster said the following of JWs.

"Sola Scriptura" like the Evangelicals.

Sola scriptura is a Christian theological doctrine which holds that the Christian Scriptures are the sole infallible rule of faith and practice.

So which is it? How can a group be called both? It is what happens when both accusers don't have faith in scriptures like 2 Timothy 3:16. Yet the accused does.

Do JWs reject parts of the Bible or do they "hold that the Christian Scriptures are the sole infallible rule of faith and practice"? Please post all the scriptures that JWs reject.

(This should be interesting)

I'm sounding like a stuck record: You do not believe in the empty tomb account which contradicts the gospels!

We DO believe in the empty tomb! Pay attention.


.

But you contradict yourself! If you believe in the empty tomb story, which says Jesus' body was missing, then what happened to it??

Do you agree with me about the WTS and their covering up of paedophilia? Do you agree that the scriptures support that the world will end?

Peter 3:10 tells us: “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.�

Matthew 24:3 - And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

O.K. I do not contradict myself. There is not one person on this planet that can tell what happened to Jesus' physical body after he was resurrected. Jehovah took care of matters. Why should we be concerned? The fact of the matter is: Jesus rose again from the dead. I believe that.

I don't agree that the WT covers up pedophilia. They won't turn over anyone's name who hasn't been convicted by the testimony of at least two witnesses. That protects a person who is actually innocent.

No, I do not believe the world will literally end. Peter did not speak about the planet being destroyed, but only "the ungodly men," as In Noah's day. (2Peter 3:7) Jesus didn't say the world would end, and neither did his followers. "The end of the world," as translated by some translation committees, actually should be translated, "the conclusion of the system of things," or "the end of the AGE." My evangelical mother used to tell me that. It is fairly well known among evangelicals and "born-agains." What version do you use? (The New American Bible says, "...of the AGE." So does the New International Version. And the New American Standard Bible.

Obviously the meaning must be the end of the world as we have known it, with its corruption and suffering. Not that the planet itself will come to an end.

Ecclesiastes 1:4

[Claire Evans]

You reject some of the Bible!

That's so odd another poster said the following of JWs.

"Sola Scriptura" like the Evangelicals.

Sola scriptura is a Christian theological doctrine which holds that the Christian Scriptures are the sole infallible rule of faith and practice.

So which is it? How can a group be called both? It is what happens when both accusers don't have faith in scriptures like 2 Timothy 3:16. Yet the accused does.

Do JWs reject parts of the Bible or do they "hold that the Christian Scriptures are the sole infallible rule of faith and practice"? Please post all the scriptures that JWs reject.

(This should be interesting)

I'm sounding like a stuck record: You do not believe in the empty tomb account which contradicts the gospels!

We DO believe in the empty tomb! Pay attention.


.

But you contradict yourself! If you believe in the empty tomb story, which says Jesus' body was missing, then what happened to it??

Do you agree with me about the WTS and their covering up of paedophilia? Do you agree that the scriptures support that the world will end?

Peter 3:10 tells us: “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.�

Matthew 24:3 - And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

O.K. I do not contradict myself. There is not one person on this planet that can tell what happened to Jesus' physical body after he was resurrected. Jehovah took care of matters. Why should we be concerned? The fact of the matter is: Jesus rose again from the dead. I believe that.

What? The Bible said His physical body resurrected! Are you suggesting that Jehovah vaporized Jesus' body? That it may have been stolen? By rising in His physical body, people would see Him and be convinced. If Jesus just rose from a spirit, why did He have holes in His hands? Was that not proof that His physical body had resurrected?

Let us look further:

It is obvious from Jesus' own words in John 2:19-21 that He would raise Himself from the dead:

"Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." 20 The Jews therefore said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body."

What else do you think this means?

"Touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have," (Luke 24:39)

He denied He was a spirit but was in a physical form.

I don't agree that the WT covers up pedophilia. They won't turn over anyone's name who hasn't been convicted by the testimony of at least two witnesses. That protects a person who is actually innocent.

The WTS had admitted culpability. They knew they were breaking the law:

A ministerial servant by the name of Gordon Leighton admitted to sexually assaulting a child in the congregation to a judicial committee. . So no false accusations there. Yet still the elders refused to give testimony when Leighton retracted his statement that he was guilty. They KNEW he was a paedophile but was covering up for him.

http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/elders- ... e-cover-up

Please address my specific comments.

No, I do not believe the world will literally end. Peter did not speak about the planet being destroyed, but only "the ungodly men," as In Noah's day. (2Peter 3:7)

That suggests that the ungodly people remain on earth to be destroyed. So it's not only the ungodly men who will be destroyed. The earth, consumed by fire, will be, too.

Peter compared this to Noah's flood. God came to destroy the world to punish the ungodly. He is saying the earth will be destroyed again to wipe out sinners.

2 Peter 3:10

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Is this a place where believers of Christ shall live?

Jesus didn't say the world would end, and neither did his followers. "The end of the world," as translated by some translation committees, actually should be translated, "the conclusion of the system of things," or "the end of the AGE." My evangelical mother used to tell me that. It is fairly well known among evangelicals and "born-agains." What version do you use? (The New American Bible says, "...of the AGE." So does the New International Version. And the New American Standard Bible.


Obviously the meaning must be the end of the world as we have known it, with its corruption and suffering. Not that the planet itself will come to an end.

Ecclesiastes 1:4

The age does refer to the age of grace since we have been living in since Jesus died for our sins. However, the end of that age means judgment and scriptures have said the destruction of the ungodly comes hand in hand with the destruction of the earth.

To support that the earth will be destroyed, let us look at this:

24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
24:36 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Pass away means no longer existing. Heaven should rather be translated as sky. That means the universe.

Ecclesiastes 1:4

It's got to do with translation. This is the Hebrew translation of "forever":

lə-‘�-w-l�m

That can also mean a long duration:

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5769.htm

To support the "long duration" argument, we have Isaiah 42:14

14. I have long time holden my peace


In the Hebrew translation, long duration is synonymous with eternity:


hechéshëytiy mëôläm acháriysh et'aPäq KaYôlëdäh ef'eh eSHom w'esh'af yächad

http://qbible.com/hebrew-old-testament/isaiah/42.html

[Wootah]

I'm sounding like a stuck record: You do not believe in the empty tomb account which contradicts the gospels!

Moderator Comment
Hi Claire,

This just feels like a one liner and also a declaration about what someone else believes. Try not to put words in people's mouths unless they have said them.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[onewithhim]

You reject some of the Bible!

That's so odd another poster said the following of JWs.

"Sola Scriptura" like the Evangelicals.

Sola scriptura is a Christian theological doctrine which holds that the Christian Scriptures are the sole infallible rule of faith and practice.

So which is it? How can a group be called both? It is what happens when both accusers don't have faith in scriptures like 2 Timothy 3:16. Yet the accused does.

Do JWs reject parts of the Bible or do they "hold that the Christian Scriptures are the sole infallible rule of faith and practice"? Please post all the scriptures that JWs reject.

(This should be interesting)

I'm sounding like a stuck record: You do not believe in the empty tomb account which contradicts the gospels!

We DO believe in the empty tomb! Pay attention.


.

But you contradict yourself! If you believe in the empty tomb story, which says Jesus' body was missing, then what happened to it??

Do you agree with me about the WTS and their covering up of paedophilia? Do you agree that the scriptures support that the world will end?

Peter 3:10 tells us: “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.�

Matthew 24:3 - And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

O.K. I do not contradict myself. There is not one person on this planet that can tell what happened to Jesus' physical body after he was resurrected. Jehovah took care of matters. Why should we be concerned? The fact of the matter is: Jesus rose again from the dead. I believe that.

What? The Bible said His physical body resurrected! Are you suggesting that Jehovah vaporized Jesus' body? That it may have been stolen? By rising in His physical body, people would see Him and be convinced. If Jesus just rose from a spirit, why did He have holes in His hands? Was that not proof that His physical body had resurrected?

Let us look further:

It is obvious from Jesus' own words in John 2:19-21 that He would raise Himself from the dead:

"Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." 20 The Jews therefore said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body."

What else do you think this means?

"Touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have," (Luke 24:39)

He denied He was a spirit but was in a physical form.

I don't agree that the WT covers up pedophilia. They won't turn over anyone's name who hasn't been convicted by the testimony of at least two witnesses. That protects a person who is actually innocent.

The WTS had admitted culpability. They knew they were breaking the law:

A ministerial servant by the name of Gordon Leighton admitted to sexually assaulting a child in the congregation to a judicial committee. . So no false accusations there. Yet still the elders refused to give testimony when Leighton retracted his statement that he was guilty. They KNEW he was a paedophile but was covering up for him.

http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/elders- ... e-cover-up

Please address my specific comments.

No, I do not believe the world will literally end. Peter did not speak about the planet being destroyed, but only "the ungodly men," as In Noah's day. (2Peter 3:7)

That suggests that the ungodly people remain on earth to be destroyed. So it's not only the ungodly men who will be destroyed. The earth, consumed by fire, will be, too.

Peter compared this to Noah's flood. God came to destroy the world to punish the ungodly. He is saying the earth will be destroyed again to wipe out sinners.

2 Peter 3:10

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Is this a place where believers of Christ shall live?

Jesus didn't say the world would end, and neither did his followers. "The end of the world," as translated by some translation committees, actually should be translated, "the conclusion of the system of things," or "the end of the AGE." My evangelical mother used to tell me that. It is fairly well known among evangelicals and "born-agains." What version do you use? (The New American Bible says, "...of the AGE." So does the New International Version. And the New American Standard Bible.


Obviously the meaning must be the end of the world as we have known it, with its corruption and suffering. Not that the planet itself will come to an end.

Ecclesiastes 1:4

The age does refer to the age of grace since we have been living in since Jesus died for our sins. However, the end of that age means judgment and scriptures have said the destruction of the ungodly comes hand in hand with the destruction of the earth.

To support that the earth will be destroyed, let us look at this:

24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
24:36 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Pass away means no longer existing. Heaven should rather be translated as sky. That means the universe.

Ecclesiastes 1:4

It's got to do with translation. This is the Hebrew translation of "forever":

lə-‘�-w-l�m

That can also mean a long duration:

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5769.htm

To support the "long duration" argument, we have Isaiah 42:14

14. I have long time holden my peace


In the Hebrew translation, long duration is synonymous with eternity:


hechéshëytiy mëôläm acháriysh et'aPäq KaYôlëdäh ef'eh eSHom w'esh'af yächad

http://qbible.com/hebrew-old-testament/isaiah/42.html

The Bible does not say that Jesus' physical body was resurrected.

I have shown you what the Bible says & have quoted it frequently. (I Corinthians 15:45; I Peter 3:18,19)

Jesus went through a locked door, after which he appeared to the disciples and showed them his wounds. He obviously materialized a physical body so they could see him. I know this isn't going to impress you one iota, and you will not agree with it, but I have a comment for other people here:

At Luke 24:39 Jesus appeared, suddenly, in the disciples' midst, and they were frightened because they thought they were seeing an apparition. He calmed them by assuring them they weren't seeing things, and told them "I have flesh and bones." Notice that he did not say he had blood. Usually a person says that a physical person is "flesh and blood." But he didn't because he didn't have any! Didn't he pour it out in behalf of mankind's sins? Why would he take it back? He would not. Therefore, he was not a regular man, with blood flowing in his veins. He had merely materialized a body so he could appear to them. If you read the account in that chapter about the man the disciples saw on the road to Emmaus, you would see that they didn't recognize Jesus! They didn't recognize him until he had spent some time with them and he told them many things. Thus, it is pretty clear that he was not raised with the same body he had before his death.


The destruction of the earth will not happen. Only the destruction of "ungodly men."

I have explained how we know this.

Concerning the pedophilia problem you describe, that so-called brother RETRACTED his guilty statement. According to the Bible, a victim must have at least one other person come forward to corroborate his or her testimony. When he retracted his statement, that left only the victim's testimony. The Bible's rule had to be followed. The parents of the victim had the responsibility to take their problem to the police. Why didn't they? If they did, good. The problem was taken care of. If not, it's on them. The WTS can't be blamed for following a Bible rule. I can tell you this: You can be sure that that "brother" would never be left alone with children again.

So, Claire, can we end this back-and-forth-without-getting-anywhere discussion?