The kingdom of God.

[Checkpoint]

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

[JehovahsWitness]

ACTS 6:6,7

So when they had assembled, they asked him: Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time? He said to them: It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.

More than just that, JW. Jesus there specifically says it is not for you to know dates or seasons. Period.

What do you mean "peroid", the period didn't end after the word seasons... if you dont mind shall we let Jesus finish his sentence without cutting him off! WHICH times or season it is not for us to know ? "the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction".



DID JESUS WANT HIS FOLLOWERS TO BE ABLE TO IDENTIFY "THE END TIMES" AND ITS "SEASON"?

Obviously Jesus wants us to know some "times and seasonss" because he TOLD us about times and seasons. Notably the "harvest season", how to identify the "last days" and which specific generation would be the last of this present system.

MATTHEW 24: 32-33

Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door.

There are some "times and seasons" that remain with God and he has not chosen to reveal them in advance, for example the exact time the world system of things will come to an end. But it is beyond ludicrous given how very many time prophecies there are in scripture, to claim God doesn't want his servants to know ANY "times or seasons" or that there is some kind of blanket prohibition on attempting to understand prophecies God himself provided for the edification of his servants.

AMOS 3:7 Young's Literal Translation
For the Lord Jehovah doth nothing, Except He hath revealed His counsel unto His servants the prophets.

JW

RELATED POSTS

What are "the last days"? [FAQ]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 842#898842

Is it possible to pinpoint the exact DATE this present system will be destroyed?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 423#891423

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

MESSIANIC PROPHECY, LAST DAYS and ...THE SECOND COMING *

*The Return of Christ

[PinSeeker]

What do you mean by saying "established in 1914"?

By "established" I mean became operational, be set up in order to start functioning as an entity. Imagine a device such as a computer. You buy it, plug it in and when you push the "start button" it starts to function. God's messianic kingdom (His government with Jesus at its head) started to function/ started to operate (went into action) in 1914.

If that's true, JW, then how do you explain:

• * Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (John the Baptist, Matthew 3:2)
  
  * Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (Jesus, Matthew 4:17)
  
  * "And proclaim as you go, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand. " (Jesus to the twelve, Matthew 10:7)
  
  * The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel. (Jesus, Mark 1:15)
  
  * Pilate asked Him, saying, Are You the King of the Jews? And (Jesus) answered him and said, It is as you say. (Luke 23:3)

It certainly seems to me Jesus was saying that He was the King (He was and is) and the kingdom was "functional" in His very day (He was and is). Do you disagree? By "at hand," do you think John and Jesus -- or at least Jesus, anyway -- really meant "about 1884 (1914 minus 30) years from now"?

What "covenants were instigated that paved the way" .... ?

• The Abrahamic Covenant
• The covenant in the order of Melchizedeck
• Law Covenant
• Davidic Covenant
• New Covenant prophecy
• THE KINGDOM COVENANT

Hmmm... You neglected to mention the Adamic Covenant, which was renewed after the flood with Noah (the Noahic Covenant. And there is no "covenant in the order of Melchizadek," but only that it was necessary for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, whose very name means "king of righteousness," rather than one named after the order of Aaron, as we read in Hebrews 7.

At any rate, all the above mentioned covenants are very closely related in that together, they are progressive, cumulative iterations of the one everlasting Covenant of God. In order:

1. Adamic covenant -- promise of LIFE
2. Noahic covenant -- promise of LIFE (renewed)
3. Abrahamic covenant -- promises of LAND (dwelling place) and NATION (a people)
4. Mosaic Covenant -- promise of LAW, GOVERNANCE
5. Davidic Covenant -- promise of a FOREVER KING
6. New Covenant -- promise of the perfect fulfillment of all previous promises, fulfilled in the coming of Jesus, Who Himself is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6)

... how did those instigations pave the way?

They provided the needed protection and the legal basis by which the various aspects of the kingdom could emerge.

Hmmm... well again, I would say, rather, that they were progressive revelations of, like I said, the way, the truth, and the life itself, which was never less than Jesus Christ. This is the full impact of what John says in chapter 1 of his gospel:

• "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
  
  "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
  
  "The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, yet the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
  
  "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John bore witness about Him, and cried out, 'This was He of Whom I said, He who comes after me ranks before me, because He was before me.) For from His fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God; the only God, Who is at the Fathers side, He has made Him known."

[Checkpoint]

ACTS 6:6,7

So when they had assembled, they asked him: Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time? He said to them: It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.

More than just that, JW. Jesus there specifically says it is not for you to know dates or seasons. Period.

What do you mean "peroid", the period didn't end after the word seasons... if you dont mind shall we let Jesus finish his sentence without cutting him off! WHICH times or season it is not for us to know ? "the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction".



DID JESUS WANT HIS FOLLOWERS TO BE ABLE TO IDENTIFY "THE END TIMES" AND ITS "SEASON"?

Obviously Jesus wants us to know some "times and seasonss" because he TOLD us about times and seasons. Notably the "harvest season", how to identify the "last days" and which specific generation would be the last of this present system.

MATTHEW 24: 32-33

Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door.

There are some "times and seasons" that remain with God and he has not chosen to reveal them in advance, for example the exact time the world system of things will come to an end. But it is beyond ludicrous given how very many time prophecies there are in scripture, to claim God doesn't want his servants to know ANY "times or seasons" or that there is some kind of blanket prohibition on attempting to understand prophecies God himself provided for the edification of his servants.

AMOS 3:7 Young's Literal Translation
For the Lord Jehovah doth nothing, Except He hath revealed His counsel unto His servants the prophets.

JW

Good rejoinder.

My addition of "Period" was both unwise and unhelpful.

Acts 1:6-7 could perhaps be properly read either way. It depends on what is being discussed.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 639 by JehovahsWitness]

Obviously Jesus wants us to know some "times and seasonss" because he TOLD us about times and seasons. Notably the "harvest season", how to identify the "last days" and which specific generation would be the last of this present system.

Is that what Jesus told us about in Matthew 13, "the harvest season" and "the last days"?

Where does he tell us about "which specific generation would be the last"?

[JehovahsWitness]

Is that what Jesus told us about in Matthew 13, "the harvest season" and "the last days"?

MATTHEW 13:39

The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels

Where does he tell us about "which specific generation would be the last"?

MATTHEW 24 verse 34




JW

[Checkpoint]

Is that what Jesus told us about in Matthew 13, "the harvest season" and "the last days"?

MATTHEW 13:39

The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels

Where does he tell us about "which specific generation would be the last"?

MATTHEW 24 verse 34

JW

A harvest is not a season, but a reaping of what has grown to maturity and is ripe.
o
Matthew 24:34 does not mention any last physical generation.

[JehovahsWitness]

A harvest is not a season, but a reaping of what has grown to maturity and is ripe.

To harvest (verb*) is indeed to reap what has grown to maturity. But Jesus spoke of the harvest TIME. (see Matthew 13:30a)The Greek word "time" KAIROS can equally be translated as "season" (ie a period of time marked by certain characteristics). Note Vines entry for kairos

Broadly speaking, chronos expresses the duration of a period, kairos stresses it as marked by certain features; thus in Acts 1:7, "the Father has set within His own authority" both the times (chronos), the lengths of the periods, and the "seasons" (kairos), epochs characterized by certain events; ]

So "season" is an entirely appreciate translation for what Jesus refered to, indeed it is arguably closer to what he was communicating than the English word "time".


* VERB a verb is an action word.

Matthew 24:34 does not mention any last physical generation.

Neither did I.

.

[Checkpoint]

A harvest is not a season, but a reaping of what has grown to maturity and is ripe.

To harvest (verb*) is indeed to reap what has grown to maturity. But Jesus spoke of the harvest TIME. (see Matthew 13:30a)The Greek word "time" KAIROS can equally be translated as "season" (ie a period of time marked by certain characteristics). Note Vines entry for kairos

Broadly speaking, chronos expresses the duration of a period, kairos stresses it as marked by certain features; thus in Acts 1:7, "the Father has set within His own authority" both the times (chronos), the lengths of the periods, and the "seasons" (kairos), epochs characterized by certain events; ]

So "season" is an entirely appreciate translation for what Jesus refered to, indeed it is arguably closer to what he was communicating than the English word "time".


* VERB a verb is an action word.

You are correct, Jesus did use the word "kairos", which does mean "season", so I stand corrected. Thank you.

However, the Vines explanation is closer to the English meaning than it may be to the Greek meaning, as clarified in this link quote:

From HELPS Word-studies

2540 kairs " time as opportunity. 2540 /kairs ("opportune time") is derived from kara ("head") referring to things "coming to a head" to take full-advantage of. 2540 (kairs) is "the suitable time, the right moment (e.g. Soph., El. 1292), a favorable moment"

Further, Jesus defines what he means by "harvest" in Matthew 30. He does this by stating what will happen, and in what order.

Yes, kairos is an action word, referring, in this case, to the harvesting of mankind, by Jesus (through angels) at "the end of the age" of the old order of things. That is, at his return to judge and to reward.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 646 by Checkpoint]

You're welcome.

Are you aware that in English the word "however" indicates some kind of opposing thought? I ask because you employed the word and then said restated exactly what I have been saying. This makes for a confusing read.

To illustrate: If someone said "Black is a dark colour" it is confusing if someone else then replies "Yes it is a dark colour however its a very dark colour".

Your answer is confusing to me as you seem to be agreeing with what I said but using terms like "however" which implies some kind of opposition. Was there something you posted above that you believe is contrary to anything I have written?



JW

NOTE

* VERB a verb is an action word.

Yes, kairos is an action word

COMMENT I didnt say "kairos is an action word" (in English when we say "yes" it is usually to state agreement with what has been said or asked) I said "a VERB is an action word". The Greek word kairos is not a verb, it's a NOUN.
https://studybible.info/vines/Time

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 646 by Checkpoint]

You're welcome.

Are you aware that in English the word "however" indicates some kind of opposing thought? I ask because you employed the word and then said restated exactly what I have been saying. This makes for a confusing read.

To illustrate: If someone said "Black is a dark colour" it is confusing if someone else then replies "Yes it is a dark colour however its a very dark colour".

Your answer is confusing to me as you seem to be agreeing with what I said but using terms like "however" which implies some kind of opposition. Was there something you posted above that you believe is contrary to anything I have written?

JW

Yes, I am aware that use of "however" is to point to something of a different opinion.

The difference I pointed to in that paragraph was between Vines and Helps.

You apparently do not see any but very minor difference, so OK, we can leave it at that this time.

But I have major differences elsewhere, from what you JWs seem to teach.


I say the Matthew 13 harvest has not happened yet as it awaits the visible return of Jesus as judge.

You say, unless I have misunderstood, it began invisibly in 1914 with the anointed 144,000.

Another major difference is that you start the harvest with those rewarded, but Jesus starts it with those to be separated from the rewarded, to be burned.

NOTE

* VERB a verb is an action word.

Yes, kairos is an action word

COMMENT I didnt say "kairos is an action word" (in English when we say "yes" it is usually to state agreement with what has been said or asked) I said "a VERB is an action word". The Greek word kairos is not a verb, it's a NOUN.
https://studybible.info/vines/Time

[/quote]

You are quite right, I misread it. Sorry.

I had no idea why you made your VERB statement, and still don't!