Do you have the hope of going to heaven

[JehovahsWitness]

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I do not have a hope of going to heaven (when I speak of "heaven" I mean the spiritual abode/realm where God lives).

- Do you personally entertain the hope of going to heaven to spend eternity with God when you die? (if this question is too personal I respect if you do not want to share this information)

- If so, do you believe such a literal spiritual realm exists?

- Do you believe that Jesus is presently in heaven where God exists?



* My question is for people that do believe that a God exists, since I presume that those that do not believe in God do believe he exists anywhere and therefore there is no "heaven" where God is.

[JehovahsWitness]

Of course not, but as He was going UP (the same way in which He will return) He was visible.

So when he returns he will be going UP will he?

[tam]

Of course not, but as He was going UP (the same way in which He will return) He was visible.

So when he returns he will be going UP will he?

I would think it would be clear that one does not keep going up, when returning to a place they were before they went up, but allow me to rephrase:


Of course not, but as He was going UP, He was visible (the same way in which He will return).



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[OnceConvinced]

Why do you believe it is impossible to go back to believing?

Well it would be kind of like going back to a belief in Santa Claus. Once you know it can't be true how can you twist your own arm behind your back to force yourself to believe it again?

With Santa, the only way I would be able to believe in him again, is if the real Santa turned up one day on a sleigh on my roof with gifts and somehow got down my very small chimney to see me. Or something like that.

Likewise, for me to believe in God I think it would take some massive miracle, most likely god himself coming to me and revealing himself to me. Even then I could never go back to believing the bible was the word of God. It just can't possibly be. I would believe in God and anything he revealed to me, but could not possibly go back to the flawed bible and believe it as I once did. I know too much now. You can't just ignore what you know.

[onewithhim]

Why do you believe it is impossible to go back to believing?

Well it would be kind of like going back to a belief in Santa Claus. Once you know it can't be true how can you twist your own arm behind your back to force yourself to believe it again?

With Santa, the only way I would be able to believe in him again, is if the real Santa turned up one day on a sleigh on my roof with gifts and somehow got down my very small chimney to see me. Or something like that.

Likewise, for me to believe in God I think it would take some massive miracle, most likely god himself coming to me and revealing himself to me. Even then I could never go back to believing the bible was the word of God. It just can't possibly be. I would believe in God and anything he revealed to me, but could not possibly go back to the flawed bible and believe it as I once did. I know too much now. You can't just ignore what you know.

Well, I hope you have found a measure of peace anyway. I believe in the Bible as inspired by God but not perfect. Nothing that humans are involved in can be perfect. So it has contradictions (which, IMO, are irrelevant), more bloodbaths than, IMO, my God Jehovah would ever order, and some scientific boo-boos. I still believe in God and that he inspired the Bible, written by 4 or 5 dozen men, men who undoubtedly rubbed off some of their own tendencies on their writing down of the main ideas. Embellishment. God says, "Write down that the final end of the wicked is going to be unpleasant." The prophet writes down, "There is going to be BLOOD UP TO THE BRIDLE OF THE HORSES!" Come on....let's give Jehovah the benefit of the doubt. He inspired certain ideas (what I consider truths), and those ideas got written down over the course of several centuries by many men. So they added their own stuff here and there. Why did Moses write about "a bridegroom of blood"? Makes no sense to anybody.

But we have the main thoughts about why we are here, how we got here, who God is, why we have suffering and death, what God's plan was to redeem mankind from dying, and what the plan is for the earth. It's all there. No other book or scroll or whatever lays it out like the Bible does, and no, I don't accept the Quran with its earth on the back of an elephant and a horse going into heaven.

Anyway, I sympathize with your conundrum, as I know how sad and dark life can be.


.

[Monta]

Why do you believe it is impossible to go back to believing?

Well it would be kind of like going back to a belief in Santa Claus. Once you know it can't be true how can you twist your own arm behind your back to force yourself to believe it again?

With Santa, the only way I would be able to believe in him again, is if the real Santa turned up one day on a sleigh on my roof with gifts and somehow got down my very small chimney to see me. Or something like that.

Likewise, for me to believe in God I think it would take some massive miracle, most likely god himself coming to me and revealing himself to me. Even then I could never go back to believing the bible was the word of God. It just can't possibly be. I would believe in God and anything he revealed to me, but could not possibly go back to the flawed bible and believe it as I once did. I know too much now. You can't just ignore what you know.

Jesus said, 'if you seek me with your whole heart you will fond me'.
The Bible also speaks of 'a still small voice'.
It is not something we can demand but seeking in humility with the whole heart and allowing God to reveal Himself according to His good pleasure.

[Elijah John]

Why do you believe it is impossible to go back to believing?

Well it would be kind of like going back to a belief in Santa Claus. Once you know it can't be true how can you twist your own arm behind your back to force yourself to believe it again?

With Santa, the only way I would be able to believe in him again, is if the real Santa turned up one day on a sleigh on my roof with gifts and somehow got down my very small chimney to see me. Or something like that.

Likewise, for me to believe in God I think it would take some massive miracle, most likely god himself coming to me and revealing himself to me. Even then I could never go back to believing the bible was the word of God. It just can't possibly be. I would believe in God and anything he revealed to me, but could not possibly go back to the flawed bible and believe it as I once did. I know too much now. You can't just ignore what you know.

I know what you mean, and can relate. Though I am still a Theist, (an absolute Monotheist), I have similar thoughts when it comes to the notion that "Jesus is God".

To believe that "Jesus is God" would for me be akin to believing in Santa Claus again.

So that is a good analogy, though you have taken it one step further than I have.

Regarding the Bible, I think cnorman19 put it very well:

"I believe the Torah is true, and some of it may have actually happened".

As good as the "Good Book" is, it is clearly flawed and imperfect.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 76 by Elijah John]




[center]
I don't believe in Santa Clause because of the overwhelming lack of evidence for that.[/center]

To believe that "Jesus is God" would for me be akin to believing in Santa Claus again.

By what mechanism did you stop believing in Santa?

Regarding the Bible, I think cnorman19 put it very well:
"I believe the Torah is true, and some of it may have actually happened".

As good as the "Good Book" is, it is clearly flawed and imperfect.

You say you believe that the Torah is true?
It just seems to me that you might be taking that on faith.
Akin to when you believed in Santa Clause, perhaps.

I'd like to know why you think it's true.. if you do.

If you don't.. ok..

____________

Question:

• 
  
  You already say that the Torah isn't perfectly true...
  Just how true do you think it is?
  
  

____________

[Monta]

[Replying to post 77 by Blastcat]

"You say you believe that the Torah is true?
It just seems to me that you might be taking that on faith.
Akin to when you believed in Santa Clause, perhaps.

I'd like to know why you think it's true.. if you do. "

We also would like to know which Torah - the books of the OT,
or the Talmud also called Torah.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 76 by Elijah John]




[center]
I don't believe in Santa Clause because of the overwhelming lack of evidence for that.[/center]

To believe that "Jesus is God" would for me be akin to believing in Santa Claus again.

By what mechanism did you stop believing in Santa?

Probably when my parents fessed up and surrendered to my growing skepticism. Why don't you ask me "by what mechanism" caused me to stop believing that "Jesus was God"?

Regarding the Bible, I think cnorman19 put it very well:
"I believe the Torah is true, and some of it may have actually happened".

As good as the "Good Book" is, it is clearly flawed and imperfect.

You say you believe that the Torah is true?
It just seems to me that you might be taking that on faith.
Akin to when you believed in Santa Clause, perhaps.

I'd like to know why you think it's true.. if you do.

If you don't.. ok..

____________

Question:

• 
  
  You already say that the Torah isn't perfectly true...
  Just how true do you think it is?
  
  

____________

Do you understand the difference between empirical/journalistic truth vs. poetic truth?

If not, it is hard to explain poetic truth to an empiricist/skeptic.

Actually, it is you who inserted the "perfectly" part in the "Torah is true" quote that I used.

Let me try explain though. I believe the Torah, (and the rest of the Bible, by extension) is thematically true, poetically true, and true in essence. But not in every literal detail.

I also believe in it's ethics, as enumerated in the Ten Commandments.

[Elijah John]

We also would like to know which Torah - the books of the OT,
or the Talmud also called Torah.

The meaning of the word "Torah" was expanded over time to include the Writings,(Psalms, Proverbs, etc.) and the works of the Prophets. Yes, the "Old" Testament.

I think our Bluethread uses the term (BT correct me if I'm wrong on this) in an even more expanded way to include the New Testament as well.

When I quoted cnorman on this, I was expanding his intended usage, (he is now a Jew, so would not include the NT) to include New Testament as well.

The Talmud? Not all that familar with it, but I'm sure parts of it are true, and probably much of it. One thing I strongly object to though, is it's prohibition of pronouncing the Name of God, no matter how reverently.

That blanket prohibition is Talmudic and Rabbinic, but not Biblical.

I believe the Talmud also denounces Jesus as an apostate and declares him "anathema"..but I could be wrong about that. I would object to that part of the Talmud as well.