Was Jesus and Paul wrong about the Second Coming?

[polonius]

Matt 24:34 Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

Matt 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to another. Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matt 26:64 Jesus said to him in reply, “You have said so.[a] But I tell you: From now on you will see ‘the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power’ and ‘coming on the clouds of heaven.’�

1Thes 4:15-17 Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 80 by JehovahsWitness]

Then why didn't God just drop the Bible, in tact in all perfection, from Heaven?

The fact that it was compiled over centuries seems more likely to speak to the fact that it was subject to progressive revelation, revision than anything else.

Some important things that were subject to "progressive revelation"

1) The trend from monalatry of Moses, to the pure monotheism of Isiaiah.
2) The trend from the Levitical blood sacrifice, to forgiveness without blood, as taught by King David, Jeremiah, Hosea, Samuel, Micah, John the Baptist Jesus and others.

3) If you insist there is no forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood, (though Luke's John the Baptist demonstrates otherwise) then there was a trend from animal to human sacrifice. (Jesus)

If the Bible were perfect from the Beginning, why the need for "progressive revelation" and trends?

Also, you seem to be avoiding the Qur'an vs the Bible question. Why are Muslims "wrong" about their claims regarding the Qur'an's "pefection", and Christians right about the Bible's "perfection"?

[tam]

[Replying to post 73 by Elijah John]

So a collapse of faith is by no means a necessity, even if the Bible is imperfect.

Oh, I agree. But I'm not sure that the people you are addressing (such as evangelicals/jws/biblical inerrantists) agree.

Peace again!

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 80 by JehovahsWitness]

Then why didn't God just drop the Bible, in tact in all perfection, from Heaven?

Well since I'm sure we agree, God is omnipotent, He certainly could have had that been his will. He could have used angels to write it, he could have made it miraculously appear in Moses' lap (oh well He did for the "Ten Commandments" but he could have indeed done that for the whole bible). If he chose not to it was certainly not because he wanted "a little bit of fallibility, a touch of errors... some "dung" (extrement) in his work, as some have suggested to keep things interesting. This would be like suggesting a mother would introduce a touch of ebola to her children's school lunch to keep them interested.

Why did God allow imperfect humans to act as his "secretaries"?

Because God was evidently going to let these men have some input, share their stories and experiences, and give the book the appeal that it has today because it is full of men and women that lived lives that were common to all humans. It is a book for mankind, Jehovah's immense generosity, wisdom and insight knew it would be best written from a human perspective with human input.

OBJECTION: Ah but wouldn't that make it "imperfect"?! If humans touch it doesn't it become imperfect?

No, because God would still have the final say on what goes in it. Jehovah is the AUTHOR, He's the editor, he's the proofreader, he's the publisher, ... the whole project is under his oversight. So while they wrote there sad, funny, touching, alarming, wonderfully rich experiences thoughts and feelings, they would still be under the control of the Almighty. We call this writing under inspiration, this means that if ANYTHING that they wrote was considered inaccurate or misleading or contrary to the purpose of the book God would not allow it to be included (since to do so would be to allow "some dung in the sandwiches").

Let's take David for example:

David under inspiration wrong many songs (we call them "Psalms" but they were in fact written to be sung). He wrote about his feeling about God (who can forget the beautiful Psalm 23 that the Lord (Jehovah) is his shepherd ... even though he walked in the valley of death he would fear no evil...). Those were David's feelings, they happened to be fully in line with what Jehovah wanted to teach about Himself (Jehovah). He therefore allowed those words to be included in the bible. The Psalms also include numerous prophecies that would be fulfilled thousands of years after writing.

David also wrote about his sins. The Prophets Samuel and Nathan reveal how he (David) committed adultery, eventually plotted and succeeded to have the woman's husband killed, and the punishment for these obscene acts of unfaithfullnes. This sad but all so HUMAN experience teaches much about the folly of sin, God's standards of righteousness, God's enormous capacity to forgive, and much more.... so as ugly as the whole incident was, God wanted this included in His word to teach lessons. He thus inspired the Prophets Samuels and Nathan to include a 100% accurate record of events.

David received divine revelation: As has already been explained King David wrote prophecies under inspiration (ie recorded God's thoughts and revelations about future events). David's life also fittingly illustrates how God reveals his pupose progressively over centures to men and women of faith, who themselves record (under inspiration so it's faultlessly done) what God wants his servants to know at any given point in time.

OBJECTION: But isn't the fact of progressive revelation evidence of "imperfection"?

And who made that rule, the revelation police? Imagine you had a perfect complete set of Jewels. You however chose to keep some under lock and key and allow selective museums to borrow and display for the world parts of that collection. Does that make the collection "imperfection"? Does the fact that the museum doesn't have everything mean the collection itself must be lacking, imperfect faulty "dungy" (displaying evidence of excrement)? No! it just means that for whatever purpose, the owner has made the decision to reveal his treasure progressively. Gods word is a treasure and he (the owner) has chosen to reveal things progressively.

Progressive revelation is not proof of imperfection, progressive revelation is proof of progressive revelation.






JW



RELATED POSTS

Why would God choose to communicate via the written word?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 08#p766608

Would God's use of human "secretaries" to write the bible not have corrupted it from its start?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 83#p833783

Can the bible be a mixture of diamonds and dung?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 22#p979422

Does Jeremiah 8:8 imply that the scribes in Jeremiah's day had corrupted scripture?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 09#p779409


Is the term "inerrancy" without MEANING?
viewtopic.php?p=1091724#p1091724

Should the term "inerrancy" be replaced?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 12#p985512

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

THE BIBLE , AUTHORSHIP/TRANSMISSION and ... RISK OF CORRUPTION

[Monta]

[Replying to Elijah John]


"Then why didn't God just drop the Bible, in tact in all perfection, from Heaven?"

***I have no idea what this perfection looks like. How would I recognise it?
Swedenborg 300 years ago and thousands of NDEs and mystics today agree there is no human language to describe their experience. Swedenborg says that angels of first heaven can not understand the angels of second neither can the second understand the the angels of the third nor the divine.
They comunicate by correspondences.


"The fact that it was compiled over centuries seems more likely to speak to the fact that it was subject to progressive revelation, revision than anything else. "

***The Divine Being we call God comunicated with man, guided man, from creation long before Bible was written. By divine providence print came into being and Bible was written so that every person would be free to search truth for themselves.

The words are human containing divine truths like a soul within the body.
I don't see how it could be any other way.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 84 by Monta]


[center]Perfect Truth: We wouldn't have it any other way
Part One[/center]

***I have no idea what this perfection looks like. How would I recognise it?

Very good point.
Why take it for granted that the Bible IS perfect?

We wouldn't know if it were.

Swedenborg 300 years ago and thousands of NDEs and mystics today agree there is no human language to describe their experience.

Interesting point of view.
It completely destroys the purpose and the usefulness of apologetics.

____________

Questions:

• 
  1. What's the use of trying something that is by definition "impossible"?
  
  2. How can we LOOK for something if we first cannot even DESCRIBE it?
  
  3. Could you describe the phenomenon called "God", using that reasoning?
  
  

____________

[Monta]

[Replying to Blastcat]

"Very good point.
Why take it for granted that the Bible IS perfect?

We wouldn't know if it were."

Whatever descends from God is perfect but it comes down through many levels.

It comes down through many spiritual levels and into ultimate of order manifesting into earthly words.

It is those internal levels within that are perfect which we call spiritual within the literal. Those inner levels open up when man reads the Bible with reverence.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 86 by Monta]





[center]Perfect Truth: We wouldn't have it any other way
Part Two: We can't know perfection but we can.. by way of reverence.[/center]

Whatever descends from God is perfect but it comes down through many levels.

Monta wrote:

***I have no idea what this perfection looks like. How would I recognise it?

You seem to contradict yourself.

It comes down through many spiritual levels and into ultimate of order manifesting into earthly words.

So, the perfect message from "God" gets corrupted by the time it gets to our rather "earthly words" it ain't so perfect anymore. It is but it isn't.

I'll have to ask you for a bit of a clarification.
I'm not really getting this.

It is those internal levels within that are perfect which we call spiritual within the literal. Those inner levels open up when man reads the Bible with reverence.

With reverence.

It seems that you contradict yourself. If we can ( men and women alike, I suppose ) have that "perfect inner level" open up to us, by way of "reading with reverence, then "***I have no idea what this perfection looks like. How would I recognise it?.. isn't true. Use enough reverence when we read the Bible, and we "get" to those inner perfect levels.

Reverence seems like your magic key to knowledge.

____________

Questions:

• 
  1. Can we or can we not know what perfection looks like?
  
  2. How does reading the Bible with reverence admit us to the inner level of perfection?
  
  3. Are the "earthly words" of the Bible corruptions of the initial perfection?
  
  4. If the "perfection" of God's message gets corrupted along the way down, how can we say that the message we have is not corrupted?
  
  5. Are there any other things that you know by way of "reverence" other than the perfection of the Bible?
  
  6. Muslims might read their Qur'an with reverence. Does that make the Qur'an perfect as devout Muslims seem to think it is?
  
  

____________

[polonius]

[Replying to post 80 by JehovahsWitness]

Then why didn't God just drop the Bible, in tact in all perfection, from Heaven?

Well since I'm sure we agree, God is omnipotent, He certainly could have had that been his will. He could have used angels to write it, he could have made it miraculously appear in Moses' lap (oh well He did for the "Ten Commandments" but he could have indeed done that for the whole bible).

RESPONSE: But God didn't. He let man write a storybook containing bits of history. And then men claimed it was divinely inspired.

Most of the world's various religions have a Holy Book of some kind.

[checkers]

[Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]

NO. Jesus and Paul were not wrong when they were speaking the words God gave them to speak. It's the people who read the Bible without any authority from God who don't understand anything written in it.

[McCulloch]

NO. Jesus and Paul were not wrong when they were speaking the words God gave them to speak. It's the people who read the Bible without any authority from God who don't understand anything written in it.

Jesus, Paul, Mohammed and Joseph Smith all claimed to speak the words of God.
Most Christians accept what Jesus and Paul said and reject Mohammed and Joseph Smith. Muslims accept Jesus but not necessarily how the gospel writers portray him and Mohammed but reject Paul and Joseph Smith. Mormon Christians accept Jesus, Paul and Joseph Smith but reject Mohammed.
The reasons given by each group for rejecting the prophets they reject sound suspiciously similar. Whenever their favorite prophet misses the mark, they go into a form of hermeneutical gymnastics to show that it wasn't an error. But when one of the prophets that is out of favour err, it is proof that God is not with them.