Should all people be blamed for Adam's sin?

[polonius]

At the beginning of the Bible, we are told that Adam and Eve sinned. ("Original Sin")

And all future generations inherited their guilt.

Is that true?

And wasn't that rather unjust of God?

[polonius]

Blastcat posted:

Lets see how much I understood:

1. You say that "sin" means "imperfection".
2. Everything in the universe is imperfect, except, maybe God.
3. We can inherit "imperfection".
4. If Adam would have REMAINED perfect ( I'm guessing here ) we would all be perfect.
5. Since Adam messed up, he became IMPERFECT, and somehow, the rest of humanity "inherited" that imperfection.

RESPONSE: This argument overlooks an obvious fact.

1. God alone is the only cause of the entire universe.
2. The universe is imperfect.
3. Therefore God is an imperfect creator.

Your syllogism again overlooks the fact that:
1.A. Part of HIS universe included people with a free will able to chose to become either good and evil though HIS hopes were that all would choose good. This was necessary to reap the rewards and benefits of knowing a people who had free will and who could enjoy true love and true marriage not possible if our free will was not part of our created make-up.

2 and 3 are therefore discounted as false conclusions due to being based on an incomplete premise.

RESPONSE: Then one of God's imperfections was giving man free will foreseeing that he would sin. Lacking free will, man would have remained sinless.

[polonius]

The dogma of original sin was clearly defined by the Ecumenical Council of Trent thus:

“2. If any one asserts, that the prevarication of Adam injured himself alone, and not his posterity; and that the holiness and justice, received of God, which he lost, he lost for himself alone, and not for us also; or that he, being defiled by the sin of disobedience, has only transfused death, and pains of the body, into the whole human race, but not sin also, which is the death of the soul; let him be anathema:--whereas he contradicts the apostle who says; By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.�

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/ ... tml#Romans

“More germane to our question is Romans 5:12-21, where Paul traces sin and death to Adam's original transgression. This is also the primary passage on which the doctrine of "original sin" was built. Augustine and his contemporaries relied on the Latin version of Romans 5:12, which states that "By one man sin entered the world, and death by sin; so death passed upon all men, for in him all men sinned." However, as we will see below, "in him" is far from an accurate translation of the Greek.�

The problem is that Augustine (4th century) never learned to read Greek, so he was working from an Old Latin translation which was in error in its translation of Paul’s Romans. It contained the infamous “in quo� error (..in whom..). So Augustine went on to develop his stain theory of original sin in which everyone was born with and actually guilty of Adam’s sin. Thus “in whom� all actually sinned. (This translational error has since been removed from modern bibles.).

OMISSION
So naturally, The Orthodox don't have an Immaculate Conception dogma either

ADDITION: I'm afraid several sentences were omitted when I posted.

The original sin teaching only evolved in the Western Church (Rome). Because the Eastern Church (later called Orthodox) used the correct Greek version of Romans, they never developed the "in whom" dogma which made man share the guilt of Adam's sin.

For this reason, they also reject the dogma of the Immaculate Conception in which it is claimed that the Virgin Mary was born free of Original Sin so she wouldn't transmit this sin to Jesus.

It's fascinating how each dogma has to be developed to remove a problem with a previous dogma!

[ttruscott]

RESPONSE: Then one of God's imperfections was giving man free will foreseeing that he would sin. Lacking free will, man would have remained sinless.

A free will free from HIS knowledge of the results of that decision is found in the fact that if HE knew before they were created who would end in hell, HE would not have created them since HE wants all to be saved and wants no one in hell.

The pagan definition of HIS omnipotence is wrong in the light that the Bible contends that GOD is all knowing about HIS works which refer to HIS decrees of creation, Act 15:18. It implies that if HE did not decree the results of true free will decision, HE did NOT know them until we chose them and HE found out. In other words, HE allowed us to create the results of our free will decision ourselves. No other definition of what HE knows fits with the scripture.

There are more than a few people here who would rather be puppets in HIS mind than suffer. Oh well, but without a free will acceptance of the proposal of marriage, all marriage is merely rape. There can be no true love either as love cannot be forced. The good thing is that GOD wanted to share love and marriage with us and the benefits of that in HIS mind obviously outweighed the existence of evil with its suffering.

Sinlessness as a clockwork dancer in a trinket box has little appeal to very many, even if the box contains a world.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 74 by onewithhim]





[center]Belief ≠ Truth[/center]

At the beginning of the Bible, we are told that Adam and Eve sinned. ("Original Sin")

And all future generations inherited their guilt.

Is that true?

And wasn't that rather unjust of God?

It is true, and no, God wasn't unjust.

And there we have it folks.
It's true.

____________

Question:

• 
  
  Some Christians believe one thing, and some Christians don't believe it. How are outsiders to decide which one of you HAVE the "truth"? In other words, other than your say so, how does anyone KNOW that a religious belief is true?
  
  

____________

Haven't we been around the bush with this one before, Blastcat? I don't know what to say more than what I have expressed to you already.

[Redhawk]

At the beginning of the Bible, we are told that Adam and Eve sinned. ("Original Sin")

And all future generations inherited their guilt.

Is that true?

And wasn't that rather unjust of God?

If a man robs a bank, who is guilty?

Is the bank guilty because they had money lying around? Is the government guilty because they made a law against stealing? Is the court judge guilty because he sentences the robber to prison? Is the legal system guilty of denying the robber the freedom to take other people's money?

Let's get serious here about law and guilt and punishment.

The One that makes the law is not guilty because a man chooses to break it. The man is guilty. This lesson is easy to learn and even a two or three year old child, if properly taught by parents, ought to know the consequences of bad behavior are unpleasant.

The problem isn't guilt or law or even the Judge of all men. It's the desire to break the law and to be justified in the illegal act.

The pity of it all is that the Judge has provided an escape from His own judgment and that men enamored of their own self-importance refuse to accept the opportunity. This is the nature and the dwelling of fools.

To deny the facts of life (behavior yields consequences on earth as it is in heaven) is a fool's errand and a fool's destiny.

God provides a way out. Take it.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[postroad]

[Replying to post 84 by Redhawk]
And what of those God is hardening everyone but the elect against accepting this way out?

[polonius]

At the beginning of the Bible, we are told that Adam and Eve sinned. ("Original Sin")

And all future generations inherited their guilt.

Is that true?

And wasn't that rather unjust of God?

If a man robs a bank, who is guilty?

Is the bank guilty because they had money lying around? Is the government guilty because they made a law against stealing? Is the court judge guilty because he sentences the robber to prison? Is the legal system guilty of denying the robber the freedom to take other people's money?

Let's get serious here about law and guilt and punishment.

The One that makes the law is not guilty because a man chooses to break it. The man is guilty. This lesson is easy to learn and even a two or three year old child, if properly taught by parents, ought to know the consequences of bad behavior are unpleasant.

The problem isn't guilt or law or even the Judge of all men. It's the desire to break the law and to be justified in the illegal act.

The pity of it all is that the Judge has provided an escape from His own judgment and that men enamored of their own self-importance refuse to accept the opportunity. This is the nature and the dwelling of fools.

To deny the facts of life (behavior yields consequences on earth as it is in heaven) is a fool's errand and a fool's destiny.

God provides a way out. Take it.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

RESPONSE:

I think you are missing the point regarding the guilt for Adam's sin.

Can it be claimed that someone not yet born is guilty of the bank robbery you described or has justly inherited guilt for the same robbery?

[ttruscott]

Let's get serious here about law and guilt and punishment.

If I am programmed to rob banks and can't resist then who is guilty indeed, myself or my programmer?

If we accept we inherit Adam's sin then we now are sinners by someone else's choice, not our own. GOD made Adam independent and innocent, HE could have made each of us independent and innocent so we must ask why did the GOD who is loving and holy, 'make' HIS future Bride as corrupt, as sickening decadent and twisted as any demon??

There is no reason at all let alone a good reason!

HE did not 'make' the holy elect angels this way...why US, created to suffer and cause suffering especially to those we love??

What hinderance is there to believe we were all born ingenuously innocent with a free will capability to chose to become holy or evil?

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 84 by Redhawk]
And what of those God is hardening everyone but the elect against accepting this way out?

I think perhaps you are wrong here. Where does it say GOD hardens the non-elect against accepting this way out? HE hardens some people, but all the reprobate? I accept they are hardened but by their own choices, by becoming enslaved to evil.

[ttruscott]

RESPONSE:

I think you are missing the point regarding the guilt for Adam's sin.

Can it be claimed that someone not yet born is guilty of the bank robbery you described or has justly inherited guilt for the same robbery?

I doubt it:
Ezekiel 18:20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

The doctrine that we inherit Adam's sin contradicts the doctrine of this verse...