Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity Part 1

[SiNcE_1985]

.

No excuses, Jesus is God.

We are gonna deal with these Trinity-Proof texts, one by one....using Jehovah's Witnesses (JW's) own New World's Translation, while I use the New King James Version (NKJV)...and we are gonna expose their faulty NWT, as needed.

For this thread, we will examine the following three books and verses..

Isa 40:3 – Mark 1:1-8 – Malachi 3:1

Lets begin with Isa 40:3..

Isa 40:3
NKJV Isa 40:3 ”The voice of one crying in the wilderness: “Prepare the way of the Lord; Make straight in the desert A highway for our God.
NWT Isa 40:3 A voice of one calling out in the wilderness: “Clear up* the way of Jehovah! Make a straight highway through the desert for our God.

Now, as you can see, in comparison, both the NKJV and the NWT reads the same.

It is commanded that a clear path is made for God (Lord, Jehovah), because he is coming through!!

Ok, now, lets look at Malachi 3:1..

NKJV Mal 3:1 “Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me.
And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming,” Says the Lord of hosts.

NWT Mal 3:1  “Look! I am sending my messenger, and he will clear up* a way before me. And suddenly the true Lord, whom you are seeking, will come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant will come, in whom you take delight. Look! He will certainly come,” says Jehovah of armies.

Virtually the same message, the Lord is coming...and the path is being cleared for him.

The significance? This is a prophecy of the coming of Jesus....and this messenger who clears the path for him, is John the Baptist.

How do we know?

Because, in Mark 1:1-8...

1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. 2 As it is written in [a]the Prophets:

“Behold, I send My messenger before Your face,
Who will prepare Your way before You.”
3 “The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord;
Make His paths straight.’ ”

4 John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 7 And he preached, saying, “There comes One after me who is mightier than I, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to stoop down and loose. 8 I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

The implication is simple, Jesus is God.

Even in JW's own NWT Bible, it is said that the path (Isa 40:3) is being made clear for Jehovah/God.

The author of Mark connects the subject of the cleared path in the book of Isaiah (who is identified as Jehovah/God), to the subject of the path in his own book (who is identified as Jesus).

This is irrefutable evidence of the fact that; Jesus is God.

Anyone who has beef with this, let me know.

[Capbook]

I think I've already answered about Jesus being subordinate to the Father, though Jesus is God, still obeys the Father, referred as relational subordination where the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are co-equal, co-eternal in essence, they have distinct roles and relationships, with the Son and Spirit being subordinate to the Father in terms of their actions and activities, not in their nature or being.


Relational subordination also applies to human father and to his son, a good son must be obedient to the father, do that mean that they are not equal of being in the state of human?

I believe the most difficult to you was to answer my simple logic honestly and explicitly. I'm still waiting for it.

Being human it does, but being God, Jesus has all what the Father had.(John 16:15)

I believe, being rediculous was the inability to answer the simple logic, logically, honestly and explicitly.

Yes, as His physical body was seen during His ascension and also be seen on His second coming. But some believe that Jesus is solely spirit in heaven. Where did His body go then?
But He is God from the beginning.(John 1:1)

I believe Jesus sit at the right of the Father at His post-resurrection and ascension.

Heb 12:2
2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Acts 7:56-57
56 and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."
NASB

So are you saying a father and his son in the flesh are co-equal?

Maybe you need to think through these changes you have made to the Trinity some more!

F2F

Yes, the human father and the son being in the state of human are equal in rights and dignity.
Though they differs in roles and activities.
The statement above not about the Trinity, it's another simple approach of relational subordination.

I just need to hear you say they are not co-equal in regards to activity

Is this what you believe?

F2F

Yes, if we speak about the human father and his son they don't have the same activity. The Father as the breadwinner of the family and the son might be in school studying.
When to Jesus and the Father, the Father as per JW beliefs always in heaven while the Son came to earth, and many more.

[Capbook]

The issue is that Capbook has not provided any biblical evidence to support the concept of one essence, as the term "Hypostasis" is never mentioned by the Apostles or Jesus nature. Passages like John 14:28, where Jesus says, “The Father is greater than I,” clearly show that God is greater than His Son, having granted him immortality, a name, a throne, and so on.

Yes, "hypostasis" was not mentioned by the apostles just like the word "Bible" was never mentioned in the whole Bible. Yes, the Father is greater or higher in rank, position etc than Jesus but they are the same in the nature of God. I think I've already posted the lexicon that said such. And John 16:15, and John 1:18.

Furthermore, it is impossible for Jesus to receive an inheritance or reward for his obedience if, as Capbook suggests, it was all already his to begin with. This makes the concept of a reward seem disingenuous, and it undermines the true nature of God’s victory over sin's flesh through Jesus. The portrayal of Jesus’ struggle and obedience would then be reduced to something artificial, like a puppet show, where the battle against sin was never truly real, contrary to what the Bible clearly teaches.

Yes, Jesus receives rewards from the Father, including exaltation and a name above every name, for his obedience and sacrifice while in His human nature. But remember Jesus had said that He has the glory with the Father before the world existed and the Father had said that He will not give His glory to another. That would mean they are one in the nature of being God.

For God to condemn sin in Jesus...how was it represented in him?

I don't know what you mean by that.

This will be yet another unanswered question.

Here is a list of things we have established so far:

1. One essence is nowhere spoken of in the Scripture yet its Capbooks key belief!
2. How can God (Jesus) die to sin once?
3. How can God (Jesus) have death having dominion over Him?
4. How can Jesus receive an inheritance if it was always his to begin with? It cannot be called an inheritance
5. In every respect God is greater than Jesus - Wisdom, Power and Sovereignty

I think already answered, while in His human nature, see above.

We can add to this list as the discussion continues.

Well, yes, but you always escape to answer my simple logic, logically, honestly and explicitly. Why?

[face2face]

For God to condemn sin in Jesus...how was it represented in him?

I don't know what you mean by that.

8:3 For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, Ro 8:3.

How did God condemn sin in Jesus Christ?

For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. Romans 6:10

How did Jesus personally die to sin?

To answer these questions as the Apostle understood the Lord and his nature you must leave your Trinity behind!

F2F

[Capbook]

For God to condemn sin in Jesus...how was it represented in him?

I don't know what you mean by that.

8:3 For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, Ro 8:3.

How did God condemn sin in Jesus Christ?

For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. Romans 6:10

How did Jesus personally die to sin?

To answer these questions as the Apostle understood the Lord and his nature you must leave your Trinity behind!

F2F

The text you quote proves Jesus' nature as human, I colored blue above.
Jesus bore the punishment due to our sins, that in faith would atone us before God.(1Pet 2:24)
Yes, Jesus died in His human nature, but has the power to resurrect Himself. (John 2:19-21)
The Trinity whom has the power to resurrect were proven in the Bible. The Spirit's power,(Rom 8:11)
And the Father raised Jesus from the dead.(Acts 4:10)

John 2:19-21
19 Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." 20 The Jews therefore said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.

Rom 8:11
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.

Acts 4:10
10 let it be known to all of you, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead — by this name this man stands here before you in good health.

[face2face]

For God to condemn sin in Jesus...how was it represented in him?

I don't know what you mean by that.

8:3 For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, Ro 8:3.

How did God condemn sin in Jesus Christ?

For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. Romans 6:10

How did Jesus personally die to sin?

To answer these questions as the Apostle understood the Lord and his nature you must leave your Trinity behind!

F2F

The text you quote proves Jesus' nature as human, I colored blue above.
Jesus bore the punishment due to our sins, that in faith would atone us before God.(1Pet 2:24)
Yes, Jesus died in His human nature, but has the power to resurrect Himself. (John 2:19-21)
The Trinity whom has the power to resurrect were proven in the Bible. The Spirit's power,(Rom 8:11)
And the Father raised Jesus from the dead.(Acts 4:10)

John 2:19-21
19 Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." 20 The Jews therefore said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.

Rom 8:11
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.

Acts 4:10
10 let it be known to all of you, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead — by this name this man stands here before you in good health.

Maybe the Trinity infection is so severe in you these questions cannot be comprehended or answered?

Have another go!

8:3 For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, Ro 8:3.

How did God condemn sin in Jesus Christ?

For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. Romans 6:10

How did Jesus personally die to sin?

To answer these questions as the Apostle understood the Lord and his nature you must leave your Trinity behind!

The atonement only works if Jesus completely died (ceased to exist) otherwise it was not a death.

So go back and consider the problem of sin and death and then use your Bible to answer the questions

F2F

[servant1]

[Replying to Capbook in post #87]

John 17:6, John 17:26
Rom 10:13--Everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.

[Capbook]

[Replying to Capbook in post #87]

John 17:6, John 17:26
Rom 10:13--Everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.

Westcott and Hort's The New Testament in Original Greek rendered "Lord" as "kurios' in Greek.(Romans 10:13)
Note: Westcott and Hort is not a translation, it is original Greek of the NT.
No mention of the Tetragrammaton in those two verses in John.
And besides it's not Christ that taught it.


(Greek NT Westcott and Hort+) Romans 10:13 πας G3956 A-NSM  γαρ G1063 CONJ  ος G3739 R-NSM  αν G302 PRT  επικαλεσηται G1941 V-AMS-3S  το G3588 T-ASN  ονομα G3686 N-ASN  κυριου G2962 N-GSM  σωθησεται G4982 V-FPI-3S 

(NASB+)John 17:6 “ R1 I have revealed G5319  Your name G3686  to the men G444  whom G3739 R2 You gave G1325  Me out of the world G2889 ; they were  R3 Yours G4771  and You gave G1325  them to Me, and they have  R4 followed G5083  Your word G3056 

(NASB+)Jhn 17:26 and  R1 I have made G1107  Your name G3686  known G1107  to them, and will make G1107  it known G1107 , so G2443  that G2443 R2 the love G26  with which G3739  You loved G25  Me may be in them, and I in them.”

[Capbook]

For God to condemn sin in Jesus...how was it represented in him?

I don't know what you mean by that.

8:3 For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, Ro 8:3.

How did God condemn sin in Jesus Christ?

For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. Romans 6:10

How did Jesus personally die to sin?

To answer these questions as the Apostle understood the Lord and his nature you must leave your Trinity behind!

F2F

The text you quote proves Jesus' nature as human, I colored blue above.
Jesus bore the punishment due to our sins, that in faith would atone us before God.(1Pet 2:24)
Yes, Jesus died in His human nature, but has the power to resurrect Himself. (John 2:19-21)
The Trinity whom has the power to resurrect were proven in the Bible. The Spirit's power,(Rom 8:11)
And the Father raised Jesus from the dead.(Acts 4:10)

John 2:19-21
19 Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." 20 The Jews therefore said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.

Rom 8:11
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.

Acts 4:10
10 let it be known to all of you, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead — by this name this man stands here before you in good health.

Maybe the Trinity infection is so severe in you these questions cannot be comprehended or answered?

Have another go!

8:3 For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, Ro 8:3.

How did God condemn sin in Jesus Christ?

For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. Romans 6:10

How did Jesus personally die to sin?

To answer these questions as the Apostle understood the Lord and his nature you must leave your Trinity behind!

The atonement only works if Jesus completely died (ceased to exist) otherwise it was not a death.

So go back and consider the problem of sin and death and then use your Bible to answer the questions

F2F

I quote Bible verses that proves the Trinity have the power to resurrect. Are those verses wrong to you, or just ignore it just like you ignore my simple logic which you never answered logically, honestly and explicity. Why?
I've tried to response to your point though some are a repeat.

I don't know what's your point on that text which I believe nothing about Jesus as God and of the Trinity. Romans 8:3 speaks about the law, that could not pardon, could not sanctify, it'll just point out our sin. And our weak flesh incapable of conquering our evil nature. If it could, God needed not to have sent his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh. With our sinful nature were devoted to death. But God sending His own Son in the likeness of flesh, though pure from sin, condemned that sin which was in our flesh should be destroyed, and the believer be delivered from it.

And Romans 6:10 also, I believe has nothing that implies that Jesus is not God or about the Trinity. It speaks about Jesus came into the world in order to die, and die the death of the cross, in which the great love of God and Jesus is expressed to us. In that Jesus liveth the object and design that aims to promote the glory of the Father. The argument of Paul was this, Christians by their profession are united to Him. They are bound to imitate Him. As He now lives to advance the glory of the Father. Ans as He was raised from the dead and elevated to His throne in heaven, being raised from the death of sin, exerted to promote the glory of the Father.

Can you address now my simple logic, logically, honestly and explicitly?
You always avoid it and change the topic.

[face2face]

I quote Bible verses that proves the Trinity have the power to resurrect. Are those verses wrong to you, or just ignore it just like you ignore my simple logic which you never answered logically, honestly and explicity. Why?
I've tried to response to your point though some are a repeat.

I don't know what's your point on that text which I believe nothing about Jesus as God and of the Trinity. Romans 8:3 speaks about the law, that could not pardon, could not sanctify, it'll just point out our sin. And our weak flesh incapable of conquering our evil nature. If it could, God needed not to have sent his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh. With our sinful nature were devoted to death. But God sending His own Son in the likeness of flesh, though pure from sin, condemned that sin which was in our flesh should be destroyed, and the believer be delivered from it.

And Romans 6:10 also, I believe has nothing that implies that Jesus is not God or about the Trinity. It speaks about Jesus came into the world in order to die, and die the death of the cross, in which the great love of God and Jesus is expressed to us. In that Jesus liveth the object and design that aims to promote the glory of the Father. The argument of Paul was this, Christians by their profession are united to Him. They are bound to imitate Him. As He now lives to advance the glory of the Father. Ans as He was raised from the dead and elevated to His throne in heaven, being raised from the death of sin, exerted to promote the glory of the Father.

Can you address now my simple logic, logically, honestly and explicitly?
You always avoid it and change the topic.

Firstly, I’ve repeatedly asked you to demonstrate from the Bible the duality of natures in Jesus, but each time you've attempted to use John 1:18, which does not address Jesus' nature. Furthermore, I have shown you that the Bible teaches Jesus had a single nature, exactly the same as yours.

Therefore he had to be made like his brothers and sisters in every respect, so that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people. Heb 2:17.

Every respect does not include a nature which you and I do not have!

Every respect means he was raised up out of sin's flesh - just as the Apostle Paul taught in Romans 1

concerning his Son who was a descendant of David with reference to the flesh, Ro 1:2–3.

In fact the very Gospel is based on Christ being born of a woman, Son of Man, Second Adam, Son of Abraham, Son of David...even in his Glorified state sitting at the right hand of God on high - how does he describe himself?

“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.” Rev 22:16

So, what can we prove from the Bible about Jesus’ nature?

He was flesh and blood.

He was born into the fallen line of Adam.

He fully experienced suffering in the flesh, completely ceased to exist for three days, and was resurrected by His Father.

He was exalted to a position he had never held before because he obeyed God, even to the point of death.

Your logic is flawed, and it cannot be answered because it is not speaking about the Jesus of the Bible, but rather a version based on creeds and the imaginations of men.

Everyone may know what Christ became, but it is the man Jesus that you do not truly understand. If you truly knew this man, you would grasp the meaning behind all the verses that speak of His nature and how God condemned sin through the sacrifice of His Son on the cross.

If you opened your mind to the Word of God and began to read it for yourself, you would understand why it was necessary for Jesus to be like you in every way. Only then could you begin to comprehend the victory God achieved through His Son over the flesh of sin.

I sense your frustration in not being able to demonstrate the divinity of Jesus in terms of his nature. In fact, you cannot even show me evidence of a person living on after they die. If I were to ask you to prove the existence of an ethereal spirit living on after death, you would not have that evidence either.

Many Christians never question or test their own beliefs until someone comes along and highlights the inconsistencies or weaknesses in them.

You have been tested and found wanting

F2F

[servant1]

[Replying to Capbook in post #97]


They got Lord from their altered OT LORD at Joel 2:21-22--YHVH( Jehovah) is what God willed at Joel 2:21-22. Thus( Lord) put in Acts 2:21 and Rom 10:13 as well. Jesus and his real religion would use a translation that supports his Fathers will= his name in his real bible over 7000 places. The darkness gives support to the removal of Gods name and use altered translations that mislead. That is undeniable reality. You best relook.