Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity Part 1

[SiNcE_1985]

.

No excuses, Jesus is God.

We are gonna deal with these Trinity-Proof texts, one by one....using Jehovah's Witnesses (JW's) own New World's Translation, while I use the New King James Version (NKJV)...and we are gonna expose their faulty NWT, as needed.

For this thread, we will examine the following three books and verses..

Isa 40:3 – Mark 1:1-8 – Malachi 3:1

Lets begin with Isa 40:3..

Isa 40:3
NKJV Isa 40:3 ”The voice of one crying in the wilderness: “Prepare the way of the Lord; Make straight in the desert A highway for our God.
NWT Isa 40:3 A voice of one calling out in the wilderness: “Clear up* the way of Jehovah! Make a straight highway through the desert for our God.

Now, as you can see, in comparison, both the NKJV and the NWT reads the same.

It is commanded that a clear path is made for God (Lord, Jehovah), because he is coming through!!

Ok, now, lets look at Malachi 3:1..

NKJV Mal 3:1 “Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me.
And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming,” Says the Lord of hosts.

NWT Mal 3:1  “Look! I am sending my messenger, and he will clear up* a way before me. And suddenly the true Lord, whom you are seeking, will come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant will come, in whom you take delight. Look! He will certainly come,” says Jehovah of armies.

Virtually the same message, the Lord is coming...and the path is being cleared for him.

The significance? This is a prophecy of the coming of Jesus....and this messenger who clears the path for him, is John the Baptist.

How do we know?

Because, in Mark 1:1-8...

1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. 2 As it is written in [a]the Prophets:

“Behold, I send My messenger before Your face,
Who will prepare Your way before You.”
3 “The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord;
Make His paths straight.’ ”

4 John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 7 And he preached, saying, “There comes One after me who is mightier than I, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to stoop down and loose. 8 I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

The implication is simple, Jesus is God.

Even in JW's own NWT Bible, it is said that the path (Isa 40:3) is being made clear for Jehovah/God.

The author of Mark connects the subject of the cleared path in the book of Isaiah (who is identified as Jehovah/God), to the subject of the path in his own book (who is identified as Jesus).

This is irrefutable evidence of the fact that; Jesus is God.

Anyone who has beef with this, let me know.

[face2face]

I think I've already answered about Jesus being subordinate to the Father, though Jesus is God, still obeys the Father, referred as relational subordination where the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are co-equal, co-eternal in essence, they have distinct roles and relationships, with the Son and Spirit being subordinate to the Father in terms of their actions and activities, not in their nature or being.

You are stepping outside the traditional dogma, yet you refuse to acknowledge it.

You're resisting to your own detriment.

If you believe Jesus is subordinate to his God and Father, then they cannot be co-equal – it’s impossible!

So not only does the dogma contradict itself, but you are also in contradiction with your own beliefs.

It’s a difficult place to be in.

Others reading this would be confused, trying to understand how Jesus, being God, is limited to lesser actions and activities than God.

Can you see how ridiculous that sounds?

If you believe Jesus was highly exalted as a man to God's side then it makes perfect sense, does it not?

Question: Do you believe Jesus sat in that throne (right side) prior to your incarnation belief?

F2F

[servant1]

[Replying to SiNcE_1985 in post #1]


100% undeniable fact= The Israelites NEVER served a trinity God while serving the true God--When Jesus and EVERY bible writer attended the temples and synagogues were taught-YHVH(Jehovah) the Abrahamic God= a single being God.
Bible fact=Isaiah 44:6--I am YHVH(Jehovah) beside me( not we) there is no other God
Isaiah 42:8-I am YHVH(Jehovah) that is my name))---not our name.

100% undeniable fact= Every translation on earth with the name YHVH)Jehovah) removed by satan's will through wicked men who had no right to remove it and replace it with titles( GOD--LORD) in the over 7000 places God willed it to be, show 100% whose will they give their support to on that important matter by the translation they use. The blind guides condemned the JW translators for standing up for Gods will( Matt 7:21) and putting his name back, even though they know 100% Gods name belongs in all those spots. In turn they give support to satan's will over Gods will on that important matter. How sad for them and all who listen to them. Not 1 who give support to satan's will over Gods will, will be saved.( Matt 7:21)

You best relook sir while there is time.

[Capbook]

I think I've already answered about Jesus being subordinate to the Father, though Jesus is God, still obeys the Father, referred as relational subordination where the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are co-equal, co-eternal in essence, they have distinct roles and relationships, with the Son and Spirit being subordinate to the Father in terms of their actions and activities, not in their nature or being.

You are stepping outside the traditional dogma, yet you refuse to acknowledge it.

You're resisting to your own detriment.

If you believe Jesus is subordinate to his God and Father, then they cannot be co-equal – it’s impossible!

So not only does the dogma contradict itself, but you are also in contradiction with your own beliefs.

Relational subordination also applies to human father and to his son, a good son must be obedient to the father, do that mean that they are not equal of being in the state of human?

It’s a difficult place to be in.

I believe the most difficult to you was to answer my simple logic honestly and explicitly. I'm still waiting for it.

Others reading this would be confused, trying to understand how Jesus, being God, is limited to lesser actions and activities than God.

Being human it does, but being God, Jesus has all what the Father had.(John 16:15)

Can you see how ridiculous that sounds?

I believe, being rediculous was the inability to answer the simple logic, logically, honestly and explicitly.

If you believe Jesus was highly exalted as a man to God's side then it makes perfect sense, does it not?

Yes, as His physical body was seen during His ascension and also be seen on His second coming. But some believe that Jesus is solely spirit in heaven. Where did His body go then?
But He is God from the beginning.(John 1:1)

Question: Do you believe Jesus sat in that throne (right side) prior to your incarnation belief?

I believe Jesus sit at the right of the Father at His post-resurrection and ascension.

Heb 12:2
2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Acts 7:56-57
56 and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."
NASB

[Capbook]

[Replying to SiNcE_1985 in post #1]


100% undeniable fact= The Israelites NEVER served a trinity God while serving the true God--When Jesus and EVERY bible writer attended the temples and synagogues were taught-YHVH(Jehovah) the Abrahamic God= a single being God.
Bible fact=Isaiah 44:6--I am YHVH(Jehovah) beside me( not we) there is no other God
Isaiah 42:8-I am YHVH(Jehovah) that is my name))---not our name.

The three are already existing in the first Book, on the first chapter of the Bible. Do they not?

100% undeniable fact= Every translation on earth with the name YHVH)Jehovah) removed by satan's will through wicked men who had no right to remove it and replace it with titles( GOD--LORD) in the over 7000 places God willed it to be, show 100% whose will they give their support to on that important matter by the translation they use. The blind guides condemned the JW translators for standing up for Gods will( Matt 7:21) and putting his name back, even though they know 100% Gods name belongs in all those spots. In turn they give support to satan's will over Gods will on that important matter. How sad for them and all who listen to them. Not 1 who give support to satan's will over Gods will, will be saved.( Matt 7:21)

You best relook sir while there is time.

Are Christians being taught by Christ to address the Father in His Personal Name? Are we followers of Christ teachings? You better internalized the verse below sir.

2 John 9
9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
NASB

[servant1]

[Replying to Capbook in post #84]

In the Hebrew language, Elohim=(The supreme one)- for the true living God. Only ones living in error filled darkness say its plural for the true living God. And ones mislead in darkness believe them. Just like in 70 ce when over 1 million followers of Judaism were slaughtered, because their leaders were in darkness, misleading all who listened to them to not enter Gods kingdom. Matt 23:13--Jesus told those leaders who thought they were Gods chosen--your Father is the devil. John 8:42-44)

How much easier today for satan to fool mortals.

[face2face]

I think I've already answered about Jesus being subordinate to the Father, though Jesus is God, still obeys the Father, referred as relational subordination where the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are co-equal, co-eternal in essence, they have distinct roles and relationships, with the Son and Spirit being subordinate to the Father in terms of their actions and activities, not in their nature or being.

You are stepping outside the traditional dogma, yet you refuse to acknowledge it.

You're resisting to your own detriment.

If you believe Jesus is subordinate to his God and Father, then they cannot be co-equal – it’s impossible!

So not only does the dogma contradict itself, but you are also in contradiction with your own beliefs.

Relational subordination also applies to human father and to his son, a good son must be obedient to the father, do that mean that they are not equal of being in the state of human?

It’s a difficult place to be in.

I believe the most difficult to you was to answer my simple logic honestly and explicitly. I'm still waiting for it.

Others reading this would be confused, trying to understand how Jesus, being God, is limited to lesser actions and activities than God.

Being human it does, but being God, Jesus has all what the Father had.(John 16:15)

Can you see how ridiculous that sounds?

I believe, being rediculous was the inability to answer the simple logic, logically, honestly and explicitly.

If you believe Jesus was highly exalted as a man to God's side then it makes perfect sense, does it not?

Yes, as His physical body was seen during His ascension and also be seen on His second coming. But some believe that Jesus is solely spirit in heaven. Where did His body go then?
But He is God from the beginning.(John 1:1)

Question: Do you believe Jesus sat in that throne (right side) prior to your incarnation belief?

I believe Jesus sit at the right of the Father at His post-resurrection and ascension.

Heb 12:2
2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Acts 7:56-57
56 and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."
NASB

So are you saying a father and his son in the flesh are co-equal?

Maybe you need to think through these changes you have made to the Trinity some more!

F2F

[Capbook]

[Replying to Capbook in post #84]

In the Hebrew language, Elohim=(The supreme one)- for the true living God. Only ones living in error filled darkness say its plural for the true living God. And ones mislead in darkness believe them. Just like in 70 ce when over 1 million followers of Judaism were slaughtered, because their leaders were in darkness, misleading all who listened to them to not enter Gods kingdom. Matt 23:13--Jesus told those leaders who thought they were Gods chosen--your Father is the devil. John 8:42-44)

How much easier today for satan to fool mortals.

You did not answer my question.
Again, I'll rephrase, can you give me a verse that Christ taught His believers to address the Father in His Personal name?

[Capbook]

I think I've already answered about Jesus being subordinate to the Father, though Jesus is God, still obeys the Father, referred as relational subordination where the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are co-equal, co-eternal in essence, they have distinct roles and relationships, with the Son and Spirit being subordinate to the Father in terms of their actions and activities, not in their nature or being.

You are stepping outside the traditional dogma, yet you refuse to acknowledge it.

You're resisting to your own detriment.

If you believe Jesus is subordinate to his God and Father, then they cannot be co-equal – it’s impossible!

So not only does the dogma contradict itself, but you are also in contradiction with your own beliefs.

Relational subordination also applies to human father and to his son, a good son must be obedient to the father, do that mean that they are not equal of being in the state of human?

It’s a difficult place to be in.

I believe the most difficult to you was to answer my simple logic honestly and explicitly. I'm still waiting for it.

Others reading this would be confused, trying to understand how Jesus, being God, is limited to lesser actions and activities than God.

Being human it does, but being God, Jesus has all what the Father had.(John 16:15)

Can you see how ridiculous that sounds?

I believe, being rediculous was the inability to answer the simple logic, logically, honestly and explicitly.

If you believe Jesus was highly exalted as a man to God's side then it makes perfect sense, does it not?

Yes, as His physical body was seen during His ascension and also be seen on His second coming. But some believe that Jesus is solely spirit in heaven. Where did His body go then?
But He is God from the beginning.(John 1:1)

Question: Do you believe Jesus sat in that throne (right side) prior to your incarnation belief?

I believe Jesus sit at the right of the Father at His post-resurrection and ascension.

Heb 12:2
2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Acts 7:56-57
56 and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."
NASB

So are you saying a father and his son in the flesh are co-equal?

Maybe you need to think through these changes you have made to the Trinity some more!

F2F

Yes, the human father and the son being in the state of human are equal in rights and dignity.
Though they differs in roles and activities.
The statement above not about the Trinity, it's another simple approach of relational subordination.

[face2face]

I think I've already answered about Jesus being subordinate to the Father, though Jesus is God, still obeys the Father, referred as relational subordination where the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are co-equal, co-eternal in essence, they have distinct roles and relationships, with the Son and Spirit being subordinate to the Father in terms of their actions and activities, not in their nature or being.

You are stepping outside the traditional dogma, yet you refuse to acknowledge it.

You're resisting to your own detriment.

If you believe Jesus is subordinate to his God and Father, then they cannot be co-equal – it’s impossible!

So not only does the dogma contradict itself, but you are also in contradiction with your own beliefs.

Relational subordination also applies to human father and to his son, a good son must be obedient to the father, do that mean that they are not equal of being in the state of human?

It’s a difficult place to be in.

I believe the most difficult to you was to answer my simple logic honestly and explicitly. I'm still waiting for it.

Others reading this would be confused, trying to understand how Jesus, being God, is limited to lesser actions and activities than God.

Being human it does, but being God, Jesus has all what the Father had.(John 16:15)

Can you see how ridiculous that sounds?

I believe, being rediculous was the inability to answer the simple logic, logically, honestly and explicitly.

If you believe Jesus was highly exalted as a man to God's side then it makes perfect sense, does it not?

Yes, as His physical body was seen during His ascension and also be seen on His second coming. But some believe that Jesus is solely spirit in heaven. Where did His body go then?
But He is God from the beginning.(John 1:1)

Question: Do you believe Jesus sat in that throne (right side) prior to your incarnation belief?

I believe Jesus sit at the right of the Father at His post-resurrection and ascension.

Heb 12:2
2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Acts 7:56-57
56 and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."
NASB

So are you saying a father and his son in the flesh are co-equal?

Maybe you need to think through these changes you have made to the Trinity some more!

F2F

Yes, the human father and the son being in the state of human are equal in rights and dignity.
Though they differs in roles and activities.
The statement above not about the Trinity, it's another simple approach of relational subordination.

I just need to hear you say they are not co-equal in regards to activity

Is this what you believe?

F2F

[face2face]

The issue is that Capbook has not provided any biblical evidence to support the concept of one essence, as the term "Hypostasis" is never mentioned by the Apostles or Jesus nature. Passages like John 14:28, where Jesus says, “The Father is greater than I,” clearly show that God is greater than His Son, having granted him immortality, a name, a throne, and so on.

Furthermore, it is impossible for Jesus to receive an inheritance or reward for his obedience if, as Capbook suggests, it was all already his to begin with. This makes the concept of a reward seem disingenuous, and it undermines the true nature of God’s victory over sin's flesh through Jesus. The portrayal of Jesus’ struggle and obedience would then be reduced to something artificial, like a puppet show, where the battle against sin was never truly real, contrary to what the Bible clearly teaches.

For God to condemn sin in Jesus...how was it represented in him?

This will be yet another unanswered question.

Here is a list of things we have established so far:

1. One essence is nowhere spoken of in the Scripture yet its Capbooks key belief!
2. How can God (Jesus) die to sin once?
3. How can God (Jesus) have death having dominion over Him?
4. How can Jesus receive an inheritance if it was always his to begin with? It cannot be called an inheritance
5. In every respect God is greater than Jesus - Wisdom, Power and Sovereignty

We can add to this list as the discussion continues.

F2F