What purpose would a system of government have in heaven?

[Justin108]

What purpose would a system of government have when God is both omnipotent and omniscient? Why would an omnipotent God need to delegate in order to effectively rule? Can you perhaps give a few examples of what these rulers would be tasked to do? What purpose would rulers have in a paradise society? There is no economy to take care of, no resource distribution, no justice system as all members at this point will be free of sin... what is left for the rulers to do?

[JehovahsWitness]

perfect
adjective
ˈpə�fɪkt/
1.
having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be.

Eating is not incompatible with perfection. The need to eat is.

Why is the need to eat incompatible with (human) perfection?

PERFECTION

"the state of being complete and correct in every way" -
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/diction ... perfection

Perfection is the quality of being as good as it is possible for something of a particular kind to be.
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dicti ... perfection

1 Having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be.

1.1 Free from any flaw or defect in condition or quality; faultless.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/perfect

[Justin108]

perfect
adjective
ˈpə�fɪkt/
1.
having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be.

Eating is not incompatible with perfection. The need to eat is.

Why is the need to eat incompatible with (human) perfection?

PERFECTION

"the state of being complete and correct in every way" -
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/diction ... perfection

"Correct" is meaningless without any context. What is the "correct" way to be human? And as for complete... well I am complete. I have two arms, two legs, a torso, neck, head... Most humans are complete. Are we already perfect then?

Perfection is the quality of being as good as it is possible for something of a particular kind to be.
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dicti ... perfection

With God, there is no limit to how good we can be. With God, it is possible for him to make us never need food. So the fact that we need food means we are not as good as it is possible for us to be. The fact that we can die means we are not as good as it is possible for us to be.

1.1 Free from any flaw or defect in condition or quality; faultless.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/perfect

Needing food to survive is a flaw.



I will again repeat the questions you insist on ignoring. If not to get you to answer them, at least they demonstrate your dishonesty in ignoring them.

Do we still need to work in the field to grow vegetables and do we still need to kill animals to get meat? How can you consider paradise perfect when we still need to kill innocent animals in order to survive?

[JehovahsWitness]

Free from any flaw or defect in condition or quality; faultless.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/perfect

Needing food to survive is a flaw.

REAL WORLD PERFECTION

A flaw would be a fault, a deficiency, an inadequacy a shortcoming... something falling short of what it was meant (or designed) to be. Were humans in your opinion not designed to need food to live? If so, why did God instruct Adam and Eve to eat from any tree in the garden of Eden (save one)? Does this not indicate that humans were actually made to eat and if so why would their needing to eat be considered a fault/a flaw or a defect?

QUESTION: But could god not have made humans without the need for food?

Yes, he could have. The point however is that evidently he did not (see above). If he had done, then conceivably our needing food could be considered defective. But a defect is not falling short of what is possible, a defect is falling short of the "original". Since biblically it seems that the original (Adam & Eve) were made with the need to eat, by definition it cannot be considered a defect. I found no dictionary that defined "perfection" as not needing anything.

AS GOOD AS YOUR "KIND"

Perfection is the quality of being as good as it is possible for something of a particular kind to be.
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dicti ... perfection

Interestingly, Collins defines "perfection" as being as good as it is possible "for something of a particular kind" so basically being perfect is doing all your kind of type of being can do. A perfect fish then could swim, but it is not required to be able to rollerblade because the ability to rollerblade is not within the scope of that "kind". Living outside of water is a limitation of that "kind" but for that kind of creature, that limitation is not considered a defect. Limitations are not defects if they respect the scope of the "kind". The same goes for humans.

If being "perfect" is being complete, following "the original" model, meeting the standard of the "kind", being a perfect human would be being able to do everything a human was meant to do. So not being able to fly unassisted is not a "flaw" for a human (it might be considered a flaw for an eagle). Not being able to live on smiles might be a "flaw" or a defect for a ...a... a smiley-living thing... if that "smiley lving thing" was meant to live on smiles rather than food. Are you confusing humans with some imaginary "smiley-living" alien things?

PERFECT IN YOUR IMAGINATION

Now granted if "perfection" is {quote} "having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics" then if YOU desire a human to be totally independent of everything for survival, then in your imagination a human that needs to eat cannot ever be considered "perfect".

The Genesis account however indicates humans were made complete (perfect) with mouths, palates, a sense of taste working stomachs and a need to ingest food to maintain body mass and good function. Withing the context of the biblical narrative, the need for food is "correct" and apparently was part of the original design and cannot reasonably be considered a defect but as I said, I concede that for YOU in your IMAGINATION there may well be a another type of human and in this imaginary type of human, in another parallel (imaginary) universe, the need to eat may be considered by you as a default.

To illustrate: For a 15 year old boy the "perfect" girlfriend may be one that cannot speak but will give him sex any time he wants, look hot and order pizzas at will. Not being able to say anything except "double cheese pepperoni" would, in the real world, be considered a defect in a human, but not in the boy's dream world

CONCLUSION By any dictionary definition the biblical narrative does not in any way indicate that the human that need for food to survive should be considered an imperfection, BUT if, like the imagination of the 14 year old in my illustration, we are going by your imagination this might well be the case.




JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Do we still need to ... to kill animals to get meat? How can you consider paradise perfect when we still need to kill innocent animals in order to survive?

QUESTION: Will humans eat animals in the paradise?

We don't know, the bible gives no direct answer to this question. That said there is enough in the bible for many to come to the conclusion that God never intended humans to eat the animals, and that possibly in the future we will return to a plant based diet.

1. God gave humans permission to eat from "every tree" in the garden of Eden (bar one). The bible states "And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food" - JPS Tanakh 1917, I makes no mention of animals in connection with food or eating. The only instruction regarding the animal kingdom was for man to take care of it.


2. It was only after the flood of Noah's day that explicit permission was given to humans eat animals. Indicating that up until that time taking animal life was prohibited.




The bible does not give every detail about life under the new administration (Kingdom government), but it gives enough for readers to built a picture of a peaceful existence in harmony with the animals and each other. Most Jehovah's Witnesses illustrations of artists impression of this paradise do NOT depict any animal based foods, probably because of the information provided above.

As any vegetarian will tell you, humans can easily get enough protein, iron and other essential elements from a balanced vegetarian diet, or they will be able to when plants and growing conditions are returned to the perfect standards in Eden. Whether or not the diet will in fact be 100% vegetarian we will have to wait and see...


JW



RELATED THREADS

Will anyone be hungry in paradise?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 675#878675

[Justin108]

QUESTION: But could god not have made humans without the need for food?

Yes, he could have. The point however is that evidently he did not (see above). If he had done, then conceivably our needing food could be considered defective. But a defect is not falling short of what is possible, a defect is falling short of the "original". Since biblically it seems that the original (Adam & Eve) were made with the need to eat, by definition it cannot be considered a defect.

In what way do we differ from the original Adam and Eve?

I found no dictionary that defined "perfection" as not needing anything.

something that cannot be improved
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/perfection

Removing the need for food would be an improvement.

The Genesis account however indicates humans were made complete (perfect) with mouths, palates, a sense of taste working stomachs and a need to ingest food to maintain body mass and good function. Withing the context of the biblical narrative, the need for food is "correct"

Were all human traits "correct"? Even traits such as doubt and curiosity?

CONCLUSION By any dictionary definition the biblical narrative does not in any way indicate that the human that need for food to survive should be considered an imperfection

Aside from the ones I mentioned.

perfect
adjective
ˈpə�fɪkt/
1.
having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be.

something that cannot be improved

QUESTION: Will humans eat animals in the paradise?

We don't know, the bible gives no direct answer to this question.

That didn't stop you from speculating so far. You did say the world itself will be exactly the same, didn't you? My concern is not so much that humans eat animals, but that animals are eaten at all even if by other animals. Will a paradise still include animals suffering and dying?

That said there is enough in the bible for many to come to the conclusion that God never intended humans to eat the animals, and that possibly in the future we will return to a plant based diet.

Did our need for protein somehow come after the fall of man? And again, there is still the issue of animals eating other animals.

It was only after the flood of Noah's day that explicit permission was given to humans eat animals.

Is this one of those inexplicable alterations to our DNA that occurred after disobeying God?

[JehovahsWitness]

My concern is not so much that humans eat animals, but that animals are eaten at all even if by other animals.

The bible does not give every detail about life under the new administration (Kingdom government), but it gives enough for readers to built a picture of a peaceful existence in harmony with the animals and each other.

QUESTION: Will there be peace between animals?

The bible paints a picture of animals peacefully co-existing...

ISAIAH 11:6
The wolf will reside for a while with the lamb, And with the young goat the leopard will lie down, And the calf and the lion and the fattened animal will all be together;And a little boy will lead them.

[youtube][/youtube]

QUESTION: Will animals eat each other?

Although the bible does not specifically answer this question we again have scriptures that cast some light on the subject...

ISAIAH 6:7
The cow and the bear will feed together, And their young will lie down together.The lion will eat straw like the bull.

If these scriptures are to be taken literally animals may well adapt over time to different diets. How, if this will be the case, this comes about we will have to wait and see. In any case the bible assures us of a peaceful co-existence without needless suffering of any animals.

ISAIAH 6:9
They will not cause any harm Or any ruin in all my holy mountain, Because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah As the waters cover the sea

RELATED POSTS

What is God's Kingdom and what will it do for mankind?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 402#865402

Will life in the coming paradise EARTH be "boring"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 552#862552

[Justin108]

My concern is not so much that humans eat animals, but that animals are eaten at all even if by other animals. Will a paradise still include animals suffering and dying?

The bible does not give every detail about life under the new administration (Kingdom government), but it gives enough for readers to built a picture of a peaceful existence in harmony with the animals and each other.

QUESTION: Will there be peace between animals? Will animals eat other animals?

The bible paints a picture of animals peacefully co-existing.

Where?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 27 by Justin108]

It's usually best to give me a little time, my posts generally take a lot of time and research and I tend to edit my posts online.

JW

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 22 by Justin108]


Moderator Comment

No more accusations of dishonesty, please.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[JehovahsWitness]

Will a paradise still include animals suffering and dying?

Humans have caused tremendous suffering to the animal kingdom and man's cruel treatment of animals over the centuries is a testimony to the abdication of the Edenic mandate to take care of animals and the planet and our perverted treatment of them. The bible indicates that Jehovah God cares about animals and condemns the causing of needless suffering (compare Matthew 10:29)

That said there is nothing in scriipture to indicate God created animals to live forever. So while some insects live a few short days and some animals live for many decades, they were all destined sooner or later to die. While there is no reason to believe that God intended animals to suffer horrible pain during this cycle and one can speculate many of the illnesses and diseases animals get today is the result of the degredation of their environment, but this natural cycle of life and death for animals was evidently part of their design.

Can paradise be considered "perfect" if death exists?


There has been much speculation on this topic amongst we who hope to intend to live as citizens of the new world. My own view is that perhaps the sadness of losing a beloved pet or animal may presently be colored by our own imperfect view of its passing. Maybe in the paradise animals will simply lie down and go to sleep without suffering at all and we (humans) will adjust over the 1000 years to not be grieved beyond measure about what is a natural cylcle.

I personally don't know that the absense of feeling any sad emotion is the ideal. Granted crippling heart breaking psycologically damaging grief will happily be a thing of the past in paradise (see Rev 21: 3, 4) but maybe the passing sadness of things not being the same as they were because of a natural change, will be a healthy part of living in a changing environment. That is my personal view only; others are free to disagree.

For me, and I think all Jehovah's Witnesses, the important thing is that God has assured that "every living thing" will be able to live a satisfying life, and since animals are living feeling creatures of God, that would include them (Psalms 145:16)

JW

RELATED POSTS

What are Jehovah's Witnesses refering to when they speak about "paradise"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 832#855832

Will the meek inherit this LITERAL planet earth?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 450#872450

Will people visably age?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 655#878655

FOOD AND DIET

Will there be food shortages, famine or disease on the paradise earth?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 675#878675

Will people eat meat in paradise?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 804#878804

Will animals kill and eat each other in paradise?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 819#878819