No-MiddleMan Movement

[safdar.dushantappeh]

I am interested to know what is the position of each faith towards NMMM manifesto:
https://www.facebook.com/nmmm.org/posts ... 71902102:0

Earth is, as always, full of non-religions in which some middlemen claim to know what the Creator wants, and ask us to blindly follow them, and them exclusively, or otherwise we will be burnt in the hellfire. The fear of fire, the peer pressure, accompanied with the indoctrination from birth lead us to the convenient trap of following one of these middlemen instead of the more challenging lifestyle of responsibly and continuously searching for good deeds and doing them.

The middleman phenomenon takes different forms:
- Sometimes it is a "knowledgeable" Imam/Rabbi/Scholar who knows about religion some "complicated" things that we "ordinary people" do not know, and hence urge us to obey his Fatwa/Rule/Sharia.
- Sometimes it is a priest that provides a particular interpretation of the holy books and urge us to trust their view.
- Sometimes it is a church, mosque, or religious school that tells to take a text as sacred and assume that it is letter by letter a direct revelation from the creator.
- Sometimes it is a "spiritual" leader/Pope/Guru who is supposedly "closer" to the creator and thus can "see" what is right and what is wrong, and urge us to follow his vision.

The middlemen have pretty established positions in their societies and through the many years they have produced a bulk of literature to justify their existence and silence the curious minds. In fact many followers feel "educated" after reading such literature. They are so good at what they do, to the extent that many followers do not even realize that they are obeying a middleman. It is not thus uncommon to hear:
- a Christian saying that I am not following any religion; I am just following Jesus! And yet their very understanding of Jesus and Bible is pretty much shaped by a major church/religious organization.
- a Muslim saying that I am not blindly obeying Imams; I rather only consider their advice that is formed based on the book and the Hadith! And yet their interpretation of the book as well as which Hadith is authentic or relevant is pretty much shaped by a major doctrine (Madhab).

We believe that the world has an intelligent creator; one need not to abandon reason to live as a believer; life is a continuous, reasonable search for truth, which should lead to doing beautiful deeds; but no exclusive doctrine can claim the "right" path towards this. These are the middlemen who always come up with something very specific in their doctrine and introduce it as the "secret sauce" for salvation, to color their followers differently and to establish a "us vs. them" mindset. In whatever community that we are born in, and whatever our starting point is, we are more likely to end up with righteous deeds if we do not let our minds to be indoctrinated by middlemen.

The mission of No-MiddleMan Movement is to coordinate a community effort to identify the middlemen in each of our religions, trace their influence on the ideology, and help our fellow believers to purify their religious views and free themselves from the indoctrination that they are born into. We invite each of the readers to share with us and other readers the influence of middleman that they observe in their local community. All the contributed posts will be accessible to public. The editors further select some contributed articles and maintain an organized summary for impatient readers. Feel free to reach us if you want to also contribute as an editor.

Start now by writing a post on https://fb.com/nmmm.org page and sharing a story/view/article/observation of middleman traces in your community, and help your fellow believer in search of righteousness.

FAQ

Q1: Is not NMMM itself yet another middleman?
A1: No. At no point one needs to trust NMMM or anyone else. If you find yourself agreed with the beliefs mentioned above, then you can participate in the movement by presenting rational arguments and help your fellow believers in search for the truth. You would read the rational arguments, discuss it, challenge it, and then decide for yourself.

Q2: Is NMMM rejecting the absolute truth?
A2: No. The manifesto never rejected the absolute truth; it rather pointed out the common sense observation that each of our ideologies is "at its best" an interpretation of the truth. It is more convenient to call the ideology that we are born into the absolute truth and enjoy the support from the like-minded neighbors. It is however much more difficult to admit that that there are many obstacles (least of them all the language) that distort our understanding of any phenomenon (most of them all the truth) and life should be a continuous search for improving this understanding. (The answer contributed by Safdar DushanTappeh)

Q3: Is NMMM claiming its own truth while being critical of what others consider the truth?
A3: Any movement is about people who share the same beliefs and the same concerns. NMMM Manifesto has mentioned a few basic common sense observations as its core beliefs (intelligent creator, reasonable life, continuous search for truth and good deeds, and religious pluralism). It does not provide any rationale for these nor it tries to convince anyone that they are true. It rather invites people who "already" find them rational by their common sense to join the movement and help us, the fellow believers, in the eternal search for the truth.

Q4: What is your proof for the intelligent creator?
A4: Refer to A3. If you are an atheist then you are not the target audience of NMMM.

[safdar.dushantappeh]

[Replying to safdar.dushantappeh]

This appears to be a re-write of the doctrine of the priesthood of all believers. It is pretty common among Protestant Christians. What do you believe distinguishes NMMM from that doctrine?

Thanks for the pointer. I do not think "the priesthood of all believers" is much different than NMMM. NMMM did not claim to be new, rather reminding us of some forgotten values.

Protestantism, as far as I understood, has also lots of other elements that makes it the opposite of NMMM. For example, the sola fide doctrine would consider only people who believe in Protestantism's view of Jesus to be worthy of salvation, which has indeed created an us vs. them mentality. There is in fact an article shared in NMMM called "Protestantism: A No-Middleman movement gone wrong":

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by safdar.dushantappeh]

Just to clarify, do you mean "middlemen" such as

- Moses
- Jesus
- Mohammed
- Buddah?

• It seems to me you or "Safdar DushanTappeh" is trying to act as a middleman by pointing me towards a movement where presumably I'll get information I couldn't find alone. So tell me, why did you not keep all this information to yourself and let everyone find their way to it without your input acting as a "middleman" between us and the information?

Or could it be that if someone has information that others don't and they take measures to share that information, they are playing a vital role, whether they are accused of being a "middleman" or not? Indeed most people call such ones TEACHERS not "middlemen" and a NoTeachersMovement seems synonymous to EmbraceYourIgnoranceMovement (EYIM) to me and that will shove mankind back into the dark ages.

[Jack]

[Replying to safdar.dushantappeh]

We learn from things that are outside of ourselves. If we get rid of the middle man I couldn't consider all you wrote as valid, but aside from that getting rid of the middle man would only amount to self worshipping. It would damage society, we have enough self centered people in this world.

[William]

[Replying to post 13 by Jack]

we have enough self centered people in this world.

Quite clearly the OP is not speaking of being selfish but of the fact that there is no need to employ man made mediums of any sort between GOD and the individual.

[Jack]

[Replying to post 1 by safdar.dushantappeh]

Human beings have a fallen nature this is blatantly obvious, because of the way a vast majority of humans interact with one another. They put their things or people ahead of everyone else's. Religions do good deeds to be pleasing to God, and all people are Gods people. If groups of Religions can't always get it right each individual making up their own god will totally mess up the world.

[safdar.dushantappeh]

Just to clarify, do you mean "middlemen" such as

- Moses
- Jesus
- Mohammed
- Buddah?

No. by middle-man I mean the church organizations, the priests, the Imams, gurus, Popes, etc.
The names you mentioned are considered prophets by their followers and the people who believed in them were supposedly eye-witnessed of some miracles that were a rational evidence of the correctness of their message.

Or could it be that if someone has information that others don't and they take measures to share that information, they are playing a vital role, whether they are accused of being a "middleman" or not?

This is already answered in Q1:

Q1: Is not NMMM itself yet another middleman?
A1: No. At no point one needs to trust NMMM or anyone else. If you find yourself agreed with the beliefs mentioned above, then you can participate in the movement by presenting rational arguments and help your fellow believers in search for the truth. You would read the rational arguments, discuss it, challenge it, and then decide for yourself.

NMMM does not urge you to accept any information from them. It rather asks if you also have already found yourself in agreement with their view, join them and share your perspective. The middlemen do not simply share their view; they ask you to take something as true on the basis of trusting them, trusting their divinity, or trusting their theological skills. I recommend the "Belief vs. Trust" article to read more on the difference:

[JehovahsWitness]

Just to clarify, do you mean "middlemen" such as

- Moses
- Jesus
- Mohammed
- Buddah?

No. by middle-man I mean the church organizations, the priests, the Imams, gurus, Popes, etc. The names you mentioned are considered prophets by their followers ...

NO GURUS = NO RABBIS = NO PROPHETS

If your own religious movement (religion) has a goal to eliminate the "middleman" which you define as "gurus" (meaning: spiritual teacher), "priests" and "Imanms" (meaning a spiritual leader), what are you to say about the fact that many of the Prophets were in fact identifiable "gurus" "priests"* and "imams"?

The names you mentioned are considered prophets by their followers and the people who believed in them were supposedly eye-witnessed of some miracles that were a rational evidence of the correctness of their message.

Actually many of the people accepted as a Prophet performed no miracles at all. Jeremiah, considered a great Prophet in Christianity and Judaism, performed zero miracles and Mohammed was reportedly asked for a miracle to validate his message and could not. A Prophet is simply a religious/spiritual leader that claims to have a message from God. This may or may not be validated by a miracle.

You stated the following: "... the people who people who believed in them [the Prophets] were supposedly eye-witnessed of some miracles..."

• By far the majority of people who "believe in" these prophets are and were never, "eye-witnesses" of any miracles at all. I'm sure you agree many millions today believe in the Prophet Jesus, yet how many of that number have been eye-witnesses of any of his miracles? Are Christians not rather people who believed the "middlemen" meaning people who believe what those eyewitnesses have said or recorded in writing.

CONCLUSION This "no middleman" movement is fundamentally flawed as the great Prophets have actually played the role of "Middlemen" and commissioned "middlemend" to continue their work after their deaths. In rejecting the very notion of a spiritual teacher, guide, helper or leader (priest, guru and rabbi), the movement is rejecting the notion how God has chosen to communicate truth to mankind.

[JehovahsWitness]

GO YE FORTH AND BECOME "MIDDLEMEN"

A central message of many (if not all of these Prophets) was to have their disciples go out to teach others what they have been taught. In short, they commissioned "middlemen" to go and help others understand their Prophet's message. Their authority comes not from their own intellect but from Divine Revelation to the Prophet.

• In view of the above, are you not effectively directing people to a "religious organization" (by religious organisation I mean: A set of people with a common spiritual goal) with a central message in direct opposition to those of the Prophets of old?
• If someone opposes or attempts to negate the message of a Prophet, would they not themselves have to be doing so upon the authority OF a prophet?
• Is your movement not therefore taking on the role of a Prophet?
• And do you not see the irony of acting as "a Prophet" while at the same time preaching a message of "no middlemen"?

CONCLUSION: I understand you are not directly saying not to believe the Prophets. But since your central premise is in direct opposition to what many Prophets taught I'm sure you would want people to ask the fundamental question: By what authority are you proselytizing¤ this "no middlement" religion*?

¤PROSELYTIZE/ proselytising
convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another

*RELIGION
1 The service and worship of God or the supernatural
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices.

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

[Continued from post #18 by JehovahsWitness]

Q1: Is not NMMM itself yet another middleman?
A1: No. At no point one needs to trust NMMM or anyone else. [...] help your fellow believers in search for the truth

So this is a movement that has individuals {quote} "help fellow believers in the search for the truth", but condemns spiritual teachers (gurus/rabbi/priest). What is a spiritual teacher if not someone that helps others in their search for (religious/spiritual) truth. A spiritual dictator would dictate or command, a spiritual teacher (guru/rabbi) will teach/guide/help. So basically your movement attempts to eliminate spiritual teachers and invites individuals to become... spiritual teachers.


What is the basis upon which this search will be conducted?

Any "search for [religious] truth" based on human rationale is doomed to failure. Humans are imperfect and incredibly limited in their knowledge and experience; even the collective knowledge and experience of all humanity from its very beginning is but a drop in the ocean of possibilities, and we have no way to know which of those possibilities leads to absolute truth. So an logical inevitability is:

No spiritual truth can be obtained without DIVINE REVELATION

To illustrate: A hampster wants to know what the world is like beyond his cage. He notices he has a wheel in his cage and food and water is supplied. He doesn't know from whom and he doesn't know why. To find the answers he gets on the wheel and runs round and round and round with all his might. He invites fellow hamsters to do the same. At what point will he discover the existence of NASA and space programs to Mars?

Mankind exists within a very limited sphere or existence. If we want to know what goes on outside of our sphere (or cage) and how any truth therein we may or may not impact on our existence, someone with a greater view and scope will have to tell us. In short, if we want to find out about God, truth and the meaning of life, above and beyond what God has provided for us in terms of physical provisions and comforts, HE will have to TELL us. We cannot find religious truth on our own and any "movement" that claims we can is bogus from the go-get.

[safdar.dushantappeh]

Actually many of the people accepted as a Prophet performed no miracles at all. Jeremiah, considered a great Prophet in Christianity and Judaism, performed zero miracles and Mohammed was reportedly asked for a miracle to validate his message and could not. A Prophet is simply a religious/spiritual leader that claims to have a message from God. This may or may not be validated by a miracle.

I should have clarified my terminology first.
Prophet: the one with a verifiable miracle
Others: middle-man

So, if I cannot verify the miracle and I only believe in it because I heard that some people said that it happened, I am basically following the views of some middlemen as I am only believe that those miracles happened only on the basis of trusting on some people that I have never met. There is no rational thinking here. This is not much different that superstition.

Prophets might have asked their student to spread the message but the message is different than telling people that they would go to hell unless they perform a very particular rituals. The message would be do good deeds. I would not need a miracle to see that this is a good message. I would take this message even if an atheist remind me of that. When it goes beyond that, such as if you do not believe Jesus we resurrected you would burn in hellfire, I am not going to take it as truth just because some people said so. If there is no verifiable proof for that, it has no space in my belief system. And people who try to get me to belief that on the account of trusting them are the middlemen.