The New World Translation does not change John 1:1

[EastwardTraveler]

Here is a thread I started on another forum, but wanted to put it up here as well. I am new here, but I am already enjoying this forum much better. Less trolls and better discussion and attitudes.
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This is a response to a tread about John 1:1 and how the New World Translation corrects this mistake about calling the Word "God". The NWT claims to fix this issue by calling the Word "a god". Next the assertion is there are many gods in the Bible and being a god is different than being God, implying that God is not a god. Being a god is said to be more of a title or status, and nothing could be further from the truth.

First there is a word play here does not exist in the Hebrew. There is no capitalization in Hebrew, so in English terms, there is no big or little g. The context of the scripture would have let the reader know which god is being talked about. Even from a grammatical point of view this changes nothing. Here is what I mean. It is grammatically correct and scripturally correct for me to say that "God is a god". God is just a proper pronoun letting us know which god we are talking about. A god is not a status but the nature of something. God is a god because he happens to be a spiritually divine being.

So changing John 1:1 does not change the problem of the Word being called God. You are still left with a big problem of the identity of Jesus if he was by nature an elohim.

The next tactic that will be used to to bring up that there are many gods in the Bible. This is a silly argument, because all of the other gods of the Bible are false gods or men calling themselves gods. Neither of the two pleases God, so I find it odd that this is used to justify the Word being called a god/elohim and he not be God. Lets break it down even further. Just because men made up gods and created images to them, does not make them a real god. Same if a man calls himself or another person a god, it does not make them a true god. Again this does not please God to do so.

Here is my beleif, that God/elohim is the only real god/elohim in the scriptures. All other gods/elohim are false gods/elohim. No where in scripture is it a good thing to be call a god/elohim if the thing being talked about is not God himself.

While I started off mentioning The NWT I am eager to hear from all who do not believe that Jesus is God, not just Jehovahs Witness. I prefer not to hear from Trinitarians and Unitarians on this post, but ultimately am not opposed to it.

My last request is that for those responding, try and keep it short. I do not want a page of verses quoted and a dissertation on each on. Lets try and keep it to a verse or two at a time so we can actually have a discussion that is meaningful.

Thanks and look forward to hearing from all of you out there.

[EastwardTraveler]

So throughout this thread we have gone back and forth on the word elohim and what the word a god can be called and what does it mean. So we can continue this song and dance as my fellow posters would say ad nausem, but I want to delve into scripture and let it answer it for us. This way we can continue to these other verses about elohim and see what these verses really have to say.
Tigger2 you actually have had a very big part to play in this question, so I thank you very much on this. I do want to clear something up. The reason I asked if you had read any of the material you were quoting is, because there are only a few verses that are used by those contradicting scholars to establish that el/elohim is used of judges, magistrates, or positions of power. Sometimes people can be dishonest in how they quote and portray authors, and those authors do cover those verses and point out the problems with interpreting those verses as they do. It is not that I was trying to totally dismiss them, but point out there is more to what those quotes say, but we will cover those verses soon enough.

I do want to state my position again briefly. To the ancient Jew or pagan the word elohim would not have been seen in the context of big or little g. An elohim, to the ancient, had a strict spiritual context and only the context of the scripture or everyday conversation for that matter let the ancient know what el/elohim they were talking about.

So I tell you what, I am going to give you guys all the arguments that you have made.
1.So I am going to use a non-trinitarian Bible the NWT.
2. We are going to use your understanding as well as the Trinitarian scholars of what "a god" means, which is more akin to a position of power and authority.
3. Ultimately, the word Elohim has to be disguised between God and a god and ancient world would not have seen a different context between the two.

NWT Ezekiel Ch. 28 1-19
(See also Isaiah 14, which is the same story retold)
28 The word of Jehovah again came to me, saying: 2 “Son of man, tell the leader of Tyre, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “Because your heart has become haughty,+ you keep saying, ‘I am a god. I sit on the throne of a god in the heart of the sea.’+ But you are only a man, not a god,Though in your heart you feel that you are a god. 3 Look! You are wiser than Daniel.+ No secrets have been hidden from you. 4 You have made yourself wealthy by your wisdom and your discernment,And you keep storing up gold and silver in your treasuries.+ 5 Your skillful trading brought you great wealth,+And your heart grew haughty because of your wealth.�’ 6 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “Because in your heart you feel that you are a god, 7 I am bringing foreigners against you, the most ruthless of the nations,+And they will draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdomAnd defile your glorious splendor.+ 8 They will bring you down to the pit,*And you will die a violent death in the heart of the open sea.+ 9 Will you still say, ‘I am a god,’ to the one killing you? You will be a mere man, not a god, in the hand of those defiling you.�’ 10 ‘By the hand of foreigners, you will die the death of the uncircumcised ones,For I myself have spoken,’ declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.� 11 And the word of Jehovah again came to me, saying: 12 “Son of man, sing a dirge* concerning the king of Tyre, and tell him, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “You were the model of perfection,*Full of wisdom+ and perfect in beauty.+ 13 You were in Eʹden, the garden of God. You were adorned with every precious stone—Ruby, topaz, and jasper; chrysʹo·lite, onyx, and jade; sapphire, turquoise,+ and emerald;And their settings and mountings were made of gold. They were prepared on the day you were created. 14 I assigned you as the anointed covering cherub. You were on the holy mountain of God,+ and you walked about among fiery stones. 15 You were faultless in your ways from the day you were createdUntil unrighteousness was found in you.+ 16 Because of your abundant trade,+You became filled with violence, and you began to sin.+ So I will cast you out as profane from the mountain of God and destroy you,+O covering cherub, away from the stones of fire. 17 Your heart became haughty because of your beauty.+ You corrupted your wisdom because of your own glorious splendor.+ I will throw you down to the earth.+ I will make you a spectacle before kings.18 Because of your great guilt and your dishonest trading, you have profaned your sanctuaries. I will cause a fire to break out in your midst, and it will consume you.+ I will reduce you to ashes on the earth before all those looking at you. 19 All who knew you among the peoples will stare at you in amazement.+ Your end will be sudden and terrible,And you will cease to exist for all time.�’�+

So here are my questions about Ezekial 28. Why is the leader of Tyre being punished for calling himself a god? If all a god simply is, is a mere position of power and authority, why is Jehovah mad. He is not even a Jew and under the law. If he was a leader of a people or city, he already had authority and power so why is it bad to claim that in his heart? Your translation not mine.
This is for JW about real and imaginary. Jehovah settles this matter, his words not mine. Verse 9 Jehovah says that just because you call yourself a god, does not make you one. Interesting, seems Jehovah agrees with me on this one. People can call imaginary beings, idols, and men gods all day long, but THAT...DOES..NOT..MAKE..YOU..ONE. That is the point I've been trying to make the whole time.
So I will throw you a bone to answer this. I'll give you another non-trinitarian Bible, the JPS 1917. Interesting how they interchange God and a god. I'll let you read it and play the word game now if you want.
And by the way, does Ezekiel 28 and 14 give us any clue as to what an ancient thought an elohim was and what Jehovah thought an elohim was. I believe there are some really good hints there.

[JehovahsWitness]

is Jehovah saying there are no imaginary gods/Gods created or that no real gods/Gods have been or

Yes there are imaginary many gods. But there are ALSO real, existing non-imaginary spirit God's.

SATAN is a non imaginary god

JESUS is a non imaginary god

Neither is YHWH

♦Given these three facts, what is your point?

[EastwardTraveler]

I want to make a correction to my earlier post.
Point 3 I meant to say that the ancient world WOULD have seen a distinct differnce.

[JehovahsWitness]

An elohim, to the ancient, had a strict spiritual context and only the context of the scripture or everyday conversation for that matter let the ancient know what el/elohim they were talking about.

♦ No, the ancients usually named their elohim (Pharoah of Egypt, Molech, Baal..) that is the main way they could tell WHICH elohim they were talking about.

♦ If by "spiritual context" you mean none of the elohim of ancient people were physical you are absolutely wrong. The elohim could be both physical (Pharoah of Egypt was a known elohim) OR spiritual, YHWH was another elohim.

3. Ultimately, the word Elohim has to be disguised between God and a god and ancient world would not have seen a different context between the two.

♦I don't know what you mean by "disguised" but pagan or Israelite they probably knew who they were talking about because they named their elohim. (See above)

[EastwardTraveler]

is Jehovah saying there are no imaginary gods/Gods created or that no real gods/Gods have been or

Yes there are imaginary many gods. But there are ALSO real, existing non-imaginary spirit God's. I thought there was only one, isn't that the whole argument about the capitalization and all the verses brian put up about Yahweh being God. Isn't that how you guys get around Isaiah 45:5 and 44:6-8 and 43:10. This is getting messy.

SATAN is a non imaginary god.
So, you and Tigger2 have really taken me to task on Greek and English grammar. I really want to tear this one to pieces. The NWT says he is A god, but remember that nasty little thing called a definite article that was missing in John 1:1 that was so important. Well it's hiding somewhere in 2 Corinthians 4:4 that just might throw a monkey wrench in your statement. Seems the NWT missed it.
JESUS is a non imaginary god.
Yes that we agree, but we question who and what Jesus is for the sake of argument so he is off the table for now. We both agree he is real and he is a god we just differ on the interpretation on that
Neither is YHWH

♦Given these three facts, what is your point?

I think I just made it loud and clear.

[JehovahsWitness]

I thought there was only one, isn't that the whole argument about the capitalization and all the verses brian put up about Yahweh being God. Isn't that how you guys get around Isaiah 45:5 and 44:6-8 and 43:10.

♦If you thought there was only one elohim you were wrong. There is only one elohim that should be worshipped, that would be the elohim YHWH /JEHOVAH. Only one of all the many existing elohim in reality is the Creator, THAT is the point of the passages.

[JehovahsWitness]

♦SATAN is a non imaginary god.

but remember that nasty little thing called a definite article that was missing

Okay then in Greek Satan is THE GOD. Your point?

[EastwardTraveler]

An elohim, to the ancient, had a strict spiritual context and only the context of the scripture or everyday conversation for that matter let the ancient know what el/elohim they were talking about.

♦ No, the ancients usually named their elohim (Pharoah of Egypt, Molech, Baal..) that is the main way they could tell WHICH elohim they were talking about.
Yes almost all of them had names, but we are talking about scripture use. I never said they didn't There are of places in scripture where the gods are not named. I through in every day conversation because just people do not always use a gods/Gods name. I don't think we can say exactly what the ancient people said exactly in every sentence. Just to up the ante, there were Semitic gods called Yahweh and El. Wonder how that fits in with all of this. And those text predate any Hebrew scripture.
♦ If by "spiritual context" you mean none of the elohim of ancient people were physical you are absolutely wrong. The elohim could be both physical (Pharoah of Egypt was a known elohim) OR spiritual, YHWH was another elohim.

I do not mean none. As a matter of fact pretty much all of the elohim had physical bodies. They ate, drank, had offspring, and even died. As for the Pharoah thing, really? Did you miss the part where the leader of Tyre called himself a god and Jehovah says you are not? Yes the Pharoah were men calling themselves gods and it was a spiritual thing. They were not calling themselves god in the sense of authority, the title Pharoah already cover that. Many men called themselves gods in the ancient world. Dude, I have to ask again,did you mess the part about Jehovah saying the leader of Tyre CALLS himself a god and Jehovah says, "yeah right".

[EastwardTraveler]

♦SATAN is a non imaginary god.

but remember that nasty little thing called a definite article that was missing

Okay then in Greek Satan is THE GOD. Your point?

Does that not violate Isaiah 43:10. 43:10 is not just about worship but no other Gods were created before or after Jehovah, yet there is one. Isaiah 45:5 says there are not other Gods. We need to be specific here.

[EastwardTraveler]

I thought there was only one, isn't that the whole argument about the capitalization and all the verses brian put up about Yahweh being God. Isn't that how you guys get around Isaiah 45:5 and 44:6-8 and 43:10.

♦If you thought there was only one elohim you were wrong. There is only one elohim that should be worshipped, that would be the elohim YHWH /JEHOVAH. Only one of all the many existing elohim in reality is the Creator, THAT is the point of the passages.

Never said there was only one elohim. I have said over and over again that there are many elohim/gods. I agree with with all my soul that only one should be worshiped, and that Jehovah only is the creator, but I add one more thing and that there is only one elohim, shema.

I feel that I should share and it is burning in my heart. Mark 12 is used all the time because Jesus quotes the Shema and that is supposed to shut up Trinitarians or those who claim that Jesus is God, but what most people miss is the scripture the scribe quotes and Jesus response.
NWT Mark 12
28 One of the scribes who had come up and heard them disputing, knowing that he had answered them in a fine way, asked him: “Which commandment is first* of all?�+ 29 Jesus answered: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah* our God is one Jehovah,* 30 and you must love Jehovah* your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul* and with your whole mind and with your whole strength.’+ 31 The second is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’+ There is no other commandment greater than these.� 32 The scribe said to him: “Teacher, you spoke well, in line with truth, ‘He is One, and there is no other besides him’;+ 33 and to love him with one’s whole heart, with one’s whole understanding, and with one’s whole strength and to love one’s neighbor as oneself is worth far more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.�+ 34 At this Jesus, discerning that he had answered intelligently, said to him: “You are not far from the Kingdom of God.� But no one had the courage to question him anymore.+

The scribe quotes Isaiah 45:21 saying there is no other elohim and Jesus responds saying, "you are not far from the Kingdom"