The New World Translation does not change John 1:1

[EastwardTraveler]

Here is a thread I started on another forum, but wanted to put it up here as well. I am new here, but I am already enjoying this forum much better. Less trolls and better discussion and attitudes.
*********************************************

This is a response to a tread about John 1:1 and how the New World Translation corrects this mistake about calling the Word "God". The NWT claims to fix this issue by calling the Word "a god". Next the assertion is there are many gods in the Bible and being a god is different than being God, implying that God is not a god. Being a god is said to be more of a title or status, and nothing could be further from the truth.

First there is a word play here does not exist in the Hebrew. There is no capitalization in Hebrew, so in English terms, there is no big or little g. The context of the scripture would have let the reader know which god is being talked about. Even from a grammatical point of view this changes nothing. Here is what I mean. It is grammatically correct and scripturally correct for me to say that "God is a god". God is just a proper pronoun letting us know which god we are talking about. A god is not a status but the nature of something. God is a god because he happens to be a spiritually divine being.

So changing John 1:1 does not change the problem of the Word being called God. You are still left with a big problem of the identity of Jesus if he was by nature an elohim.

The next tactic that will be used to to bring up that there are many gods in the Bible. This is a silly argument, because all of the other gods of the Bible are false gods or men calling themselves gods. Neither of the two pleases God, so I find it odd that this is used to justify the Word being called a god/elohim and he not be God. Lets break it down even further. Just because men made up gods and created images to them, does not make them a real god. Same if a man calls himself or another person a god, it does not make them a true god. Again this does not please God to do so.

Here is my beleif, that God/elohim is the only real god/elohim in the scriptures. All other gods/elohim are false gods/elohim. No where in scripture is it a good thing to be call a god/elohim if the thing being talked about is not God himself.

While I started off mentioning The NWT I am eager to hear from all who do not believe that Jesus is God, not just Jehovahs Witness. I prefer not to hear from Trinitarians and Unitarians on this post, but ultimately am not opposed to it.

My last request is that for those responding, try and keep it short. I do not want a page of verses quoted and a dissertation on each on. Lets try and keep it to a verse or two at a time so we can actually have a discussion that is meaningful.

Thanks and look forward to hearing from all of you out there.

[EastwardTraveler]

[JehovahsWitness]

is Jehovah saying there are no imaginary gods/Gods created or that no real gods/Gods have been or

Yes there are imaginary many gods. But there are ALSO real, existing non-imaginary spirit God's.

SATAN is a non imaginary god

JESUS is a non imaginary god

Neither is YHWH

♦Given these three facts, what is your point?

[EastwardTraveler]

I want to make a correction to my earlier post.
Point 3 I meant to say that the ancient world WOULD have seen a distinct differnce.

[JehovahsWitness]

An elohim, to the ancient, had a strict spiritual context and only the context of the scripture or everyday conversation for that matter let the ancient know what el/elohim they were talking about.

♦ No, the ancients usually named their elohim (Pharoah of Egypt, Molech, Baal..) that is the main way they could tell WHICH elohim they were talking about.

♦ If by "spiritual context" you mean none of the elohim of ancient people were physical you are absolutely wrong. The elohim could be both physical (Pharoah of Egypt was a known elohim) OR spiritual, YHWH was another elohim.

3. Ultimately, the word Elohim has to be disguised between God and a god and ancient world would not have seen a different context between the two.

♦I don't know what you mean by "disguised" but pagan or Israelite they probably knew who they were talking about because they named their elohim. (See above)

[EastwardTraveler]

is Jehovah saying there are no imaginary gods/Gods created or that no real gods/Gods have been or

Yes there are imaginary many gods. But there are ALSO real, existing non-imaginary spirit God's. I thought there was only one, isn't that the whole argument about the capitalization and all the verses brian put up about Yahweh being God. Isn't that how you guys get around Isaiah 45:5 and 44:6-8 and 43:10. This is getting messy.

SATAN is a non imaginary god.
So, you and Tigger2 have really taken me to task on Greek and English grammar. I really want to tear this one to pieces. The NWT says he is A god, but remember that nasty little thing called a definite article that was missing in John 1:1 that was so important. Well it's hiding somewhere in 2 Corinthians 4:4 that just might throw a monkey wrench in your statement. Seems the NWT missed it.
JESUS is a non imaginary god.
Yes that we agree, but we question who and what Jesus is for the sake of argument so he is off the table for now. We both agree he is real and he is a god we just differ on the interpretation on that
Neither is YHWH

♦Given these three facts, what is your point?

I think I just made it loud and clear.

[JehovahsWitness]

I thought there was only one, isn't that the whole argument about the capitalization and all the verses brian put up about Yahweh being God. Isn't that how you guys get around Isaiah 45:5 and 44:6-8 and 43:10.

♦If you thought there was only one elohim you were wrong. There is only one elohim that should be worshipped, that would be the elohim YHWH /JEHOVAH. Only one of all the many existing elohim in reality is the Creator, THAT is the point of the passages.

[JehovahsWitness]

♦SATAN is a non imaginary god.

but remember that nasty little thing called a definite article that was missing

Okay then in Greek Satan is THE GOD. Your point?

[EastwardTraveler]

An elohim, to the ancient, had a strict spiritual context and only the context of the scripture or everyday conversation for that matter let the ancient know what el/elohim they were talking about.

♦ No, the ancients usually named their elohim (Pharoah of Egypt, Molech, Baal..) that is the main way they could tell WHICH elohim they were talking about.
Yes almost all of them had names, but we are talking about scripture use. I never said they didn't There are of places in scripture where the gods are not named. I through in every day conversation because just people do not always use a gods/Gods name. I don't think we can say exactly what the ancient people said exactly in every sentence. Just to up the ante, there were Semitic gods called Yahweh and El. Wonder how that fits in with all of this. And those text predate any Hebrew scripture.
♦ If by "spiritual context" you mean none of the elohim of ancient people were physical you are absolutely wrong. The elohim could be both physical (Pharoah of Egypt was a known elohim) OR spiritual, YHWH was another elohim.

I do not mean none. As a matter of fact pretty much all of the elohim had physical bodies. They ate, drank, had offspring, and even died. As for the Pharoah thing, really? Did you miss the part where the leader of Tyre called himself a god and Jehovah says you are not? Yes the Pharoah were men calling themselves gods and it was a spiritual thing. They were not calling themselves god in the sense of authority, the title Pharoah already cover that. Many men called themselves gods in the ancient world. Dude, I have to ask again,did you mess the part about Jehovah saying the leader of Tyre CALLS himself a god and Jehovah says, "yeah right".

[EastwardTraveler]

♦SATAN is a non imaginary god.

but remember that nasty little thing called a definite article that was missing

Okay then in Greek Satan is THE GOD. Your point?

Does that not violate Isaiah 43:10. 43:10 is not just about worship but no other Gods were created before or after Jehovah, yet there is one. Isaiah 45:5 says there are not other Gods. We need to be specific here.

[EastwardTraveler]