What is the Biblical view of hell?

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
otseng
Savant
Posts: 20545
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Has thanked: 197 times
Been thanked: 337 times
Contact:

What is the Biblical view of hell?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

SallyF wrote: The concept of Hell is one of the many unmarketable, embarrassingly unbelievable religious concepts that has been recently swept under the altar in the severely diluted quasi-belief system that passes for Christianity in certain circles.
Divine Insight wrote: In fact, I think this is why Christianity invented eternal punishment in hell. They started to realize that just plain dying wouldn't be compelling. So instead they invented the concept of "Everlasting Punishment" for those who refuse to comply.
Questions for debate:
What is the Biblical view of hell?
What concepts do we have of hell that are not in the Bible?

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21192
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 800 times
Been thanked: 1135 times
Contact:

Post #31

Post by JehovahsWitness »

otseng wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
otseng wrote: ..Sheol, it can refer to a literal physical grave ...
Can you provide a text where you believe this to be the case?


[Pro 23:13-14 KJV] 13 Withhold not correction from the child: for [if] thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. 14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (Sheol).

[2Sa 22:6 KJV] 6 The sorrows of hell (Sheol) compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;

Maybe you misunderstood my question, I propose that SHEOL always refers to the ultimate condition all living breathing creatures end up in, "the grave(dom)" ie the common grave of all mankind, not to a specific burial location (tomb) that someone can literally go and stand on.

Are you contesting this point if so, is that contestation based on the above biblical passages?


JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
otseng
Savant
Posts: 20545
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Has thanked: 197 times
Been thanked: 337 times
Contact:

Post #32

Post by otseng »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
otseng wrote:
Moses and Elijah appeared during the transfiguration of Jesus.

Luk 9:30
And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
It was a vision, an optical illusion, Moses and Elijah were not literally there, it just looked as if they were ...
Jesus commands: “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead.�​—Matthew 17:9.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 921#943921
How are you able to keep up with all the posts you've made in the past?!

I don't disagree that it was a vision, but the apostles must've believed in some sort of afterlife otherwise the appearance of Moses and Elijah would make no sense to them. Their response would be more like, "Hey, nice optical illusion Jesus, but we know that Moses and Elijah are both dead dead. They don't even exist in the spiritual realm!" But, instead, Peter even wanted to make a tabernacle for them.

shnarkle
Guru
Posts: 2054
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:56 am

Post #33

Post by shnarkle »

otseng wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
otseng wrote: ..Sheol, it can refer to a literal physical grave ...
Can you provide a text where you believe this to be the case?
I'm surprised so many people want to debate this. Even if it does not refer to a physical grave, it's not that important. I don't see how it alters what the view of hell would be.

But, anyways, I believe it refers to a physical grave because translators sometimes use the word "grave", not "hell", for Sheol.
And they not only use the word "grave", but the definite article as well (rather than the indefinite article).
If translaters believe Sheol referred to the spiritual location, they would use hell.
Why wouldn't they use "the grave" as well? I would, and others have e.g. the KJV.
If they believed it referred to the physical location, they would use grave.
And many do use the term for grave which is "keber".
If Sheol always referred to the spiritual, why even translate it to grave?
Because just as "a grave" is the resting place for the dead body, so too "the grave" is the resting place for the person who was identified with that dead body.
Even more important is when Sheol does refer to hell, I don't believe it should always be interpreted literally. Sometimes it can be, but not all the time. For example,

[Pro 23:13-14 KJV] 13 Withhold not correction from the child: for [if] thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. 14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (Sheol).

Should we interpret this to mean disciplining a child would prevent him from literally going to hell? I see it more as an expression. Just like if someone tells me to "go to hell", it's not that he's literally commanding me to go to hell, but it's more expressing his feelings in an idiom that we all understand.

Another example,

[2Sa 22:6 KJV] 6 The sorrows of hell (Sheol) compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;

Was David literally in hell? No, rather it's an expression to describe the level of grief that David felt.
It appears that you just provided examples to support JW's position rather than supporting the idea that it refers to an actual grave. Now that I think of it, I can't think of any examples where Sheol refers to a literal grave with a physical dead body in it. I'd kind of like to see if there are any examples as well.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21192
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 800 times
Been thanked: 1135 times
Contact:

Post #34

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 32 by otseng]

I don't see any point in speculating what went through the minds of the disciples.... It was a vision so by definition those individuals (Elijah and Moses) were not in reality, present.


JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

shnarkle
Guru
Posts: 2054
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:56 am

Post #35

Post by shnarkle »

otseng wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
otseng wrote:
Moses and Elijah appeared during the transfiguration of Jesus.

Luk 9:30
And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
It was a vision, an optical illusion, Moses and Elijah were not literally there, it just looked as if they were ...
Jesus commands: “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead.�​—Matthew 17:9.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 921#943921
How are you able to keep up with all the posts you've made in the past?!

I don't disagree that it was a vision, but the apostles must've believed in some sort of afterlife otherwise the appearance of Moses and Elijah would make no sense to them. Their response would be more like, "Hey, nice optical illusion Jesus, but we know that Moses and Elijah are both dead dead. They don't even exist in the spiritual realm!" But, instead, Peter even wanted to make a tabernacle for them.
I don't think we're giving the author's audience enough credit. I doubt it really mattered much if one believed in an afterlife or not. The point of the scene is to point out that Jesus is the fulfilment of the law and the prophets. Peter's comments could very well be a comedic interruption to show us that our ideas of what this vision really means are silly by comparison to their true meaning.

I'm not suggesting that I have the true and complete meaning to the passage, just that building structures to house dead prophets is silly, and blatantly intended to be viewed that way.

Today we have St. Peter's cathedral, and St. Paul's, St. Mark's etc. Perhaps this idea was already being bandied about when these gospel accounts were being transmitted.

User avatar
otseng
Savant
Posts: 20545
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Has thanked: 197 times
Been thanked: 337 times
Contact:

Post #36

Post by otseng »

shnarkle wrote: It appears that you just provided examples to support JW's position rather than supporting the idea that it refers to an actual grave. Now that I think of it, I can't think of any examples where Sheol refers to a literal grave with a physical dead body in it. I'd kind of like to see if there are any examples as well.
Whether Sheol represents a physical grave or not is not important. I'm merely pointing out that translaters use various words to translate Sheol.

But, it is important if Sheol should always be interpreted literally or can it sometimes be just an idiom.

I maintain sometimes it is simply used as an idiom. I don't think JehovahsWitness believes this.

shnarkle
Guru
Posts: 2054
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:56 am

Post #37

Post by shnarkle »

otseng wrote:
shnarkle wrote: It appears that you just provided examples to support JW's position rather than supporting the idea that it refers to an actual grave. Now that I think of it, I can't think of any examples where Sheol refers to a literal grave with a physical dead body in it. I'd kind of like to see if there are any examples as well.
Whether Sheol represents a physical grave or not is not important. I'm merely pointing out that translaters use various words to translate Sheol.

But, it is important if Sheol should always be interpreted literally or can it sometimes be just an idiom.

I maintain sometimes it is simply used as an idiom. I don't think JehovahsWitness believes this.

I don't think anyone is denying that Sheol can be used figuratively to denote the abode of the dead. Your previous claim was that it is used literally, but no one seems to have any examples to support this assertion which is why we were hoping you might have a few we missed.

Overcomer
Guru
Posts: 1330
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:44 am
Location: Canada
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 66 times

Post #38

Post by Overcomer »

Jehovah's Witness wrote:
DEATH The bible does not support the teachings of consciouse survival of any part of a person after their physical body ceases to function. Physical death is always presented as the end of all consciousness (the end of all thought, action and feeling). When a person dies, they cease to exist and are in the exact same state as they were before they were conceived or created, in short a dead person no longer exists anywhere as a conscious feeling thinking being.
There are a number of Scripture passages that speak to the existence of the soul after death. Here is one:

Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who where leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations. All of them will speak and say to you: “You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!� Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, and the sound of your harps; maggots are the bed beneath you, and worms are your covering (Is. 14:9-11).

These verses are part of an oracle which offers a prophecy of God. In this case, the Lord is outlining the future fall of Babylon and its king. However, scholars don’t stop there. Barry Webb, in his commentary says that the king is “a representative figure, the embodiment of that worldly arrogance that defies God and tramples others in its lust for power� (The Message of Isaiah, InterVarsity Press, 1996, p. 83). So it isn’t merely for that time and those people. As Webb notes, it refers to all those down through history who commit crimes against humanity. He describes how they end up in Sheol.

J. A. Motyer, in his commentary, says it expresses several Old Testament truths about the dead. First and foremost is the fact that they are alive, meaning that “in the Bible, death is never a termination, but a change of place and state with continuity of personal identity� (The Prophecy of Isaiah, InterVarsity Press, 1993, p. 143).

There are other Scripture passages that speak to the ongoing existence of one’s soul after physical death. For example, there is Rev. 6:10 in which the martyrs cry out to God, saying, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?�

Then there is the account of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31. Some people consider it a parable, but I don’t. Jesus never names anyone in his parables and uses general examples for all to relate to. Even if it were a parable, Jesus never told fanciful stories, that is, stories in places with no correlation to real people and real places. So he didn't make up the existence of a place where spirits went following death.

And Peter tells us that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison (1 Peter 3:18, 19), a passage which refers to Jesus descending to Sheol to show those who had died bodily that he had fulfilled the prophecies regarding the Messiah.

And then there is Paul's statement that to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:6-8). How could it be better to be with the Lord if one was unconscious? See here:

https://www.gotquestions.org/absent-from-the-body.html

There are more, but I think that’s a good start.

shnarkle wrote:
I don't think anyone is denying that Sheol can be used figuratively to denote the abode of the dead. Your previous claim was that it is used literally, but no one seems to have any examples to support this assertion which is why we were hoping you might have a few we missed.
I think the above Scripture passages answer your concern.
Last edited by Overcomer on Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
otseng
Savant
Posts: 20545
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Has thanked: 197 times
Been thanked: 337 times
Contact:

Post #39

Post by otseng »

[Replying to post 37 by shnarkle]

I found a verse where Sheol refers to a physical location, not a spiritual location.

[Num 16:32-33 KJV] 32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that [appertained] unto Korah, and all [their] goods. 33 They, and all that [appertained] to them, went down alive into the pit (Sheol), and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21192
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 800 times
Been thanked: 1135 times
Contact:

Post #40

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Overcomer wrote:

There are a number of Scripture passages that speak to the existence of the soul after death. Here is one:

Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you... (Is. 14:9-11).

What do you think SHEOL is that it can literally get excited? Is it possible we are dealing with poetry sheol being spoken of metaphorically as a gatekeeper?

Berean Study Bible
Sheol beneath is eager to meet you upon your arrival.

New American Standard Bible
"Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come;

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Sheol below wakes up to meet you when you come

Jubilee Bible 2000
Sheol from beneath is aghast at thee;

Young's Literal Translation
Sheol beneath hath been troubled at thee,
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Post Reply