Christian "Love" for "Homosexuals"

[Haven]

Christian fundamentalists often claim to "love" lesbians, gays, and bisexuals (who they invariably label "homosexuals"), while at the same time actively opposing gay rights, including marriage equality, hate crimes laws, and even decriminalization of same-sex relationships. This seems ridiculous to me, as love implies support, but these individuals certainly don't support LGB people.

Debate question: Is it possible to love gay, lesbian, and bisexual people while opposing gay rights?[/i

[bluethread]

You are correct that this is the rule for those who wish to be Adonai's people. However, I see no example of Yeshua supporting homosexual behavior or violating Torah in an y way. Yes, I do believe that "(i)f a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination".

(emphases mine)

I assume you also view wearing mixed fabrics and planting fields with two different kinds of crops to be "abominations" (to'evah), since they are also against the Torah?

The Torah, by the way, never mentions sex between women, so -- by your worldview -- it must be OK?

Could you please provide the passage where those things are called "abominations" so we can examine them?

There are many things that are not directly mentioned in HaTorah that I do not think are OK. For example, necrophilia is not directly mentioned, but I do not think that is OK.

You are obligated to call the police. Due process is a Torah principle. Since, that present authorities would not recognize that statute nothing would come of it.

So, you literally think gay people should be put to death for being gay?!

No, I think that in a society that is permitted to enforce Torah law, the death penalty could be imposed on men found guilty of practicing buggery, subject to due process.

Edit for relevance of later post.

[Haven]

You are obligated to call the police. Due process is a Torah principle. Since, that present authorities would not recognize that statute nothing would come of it.

So, you literally think gay people should be put to death for being gay?!

[bluethread]

However, I see no example of Yeshua supporting homosexual behavior or violating Torah in any way.

Well, were not the Pharisees, those who considered themselves loyal to God and true to the Torah, the most bitter, and deadly, opponents of Jesus (and vice verse) and His message? It seems that these people who claimed to hold true to the letter of the often cruel Torah certainly believed that Jesus violated the Torah. And, apparently ...He did. An example that springs to mind is when they accused Jesus of being disobedient to the Sabbath-command when He and His disciples gathered and ate food (grain) on that day. God (as per the Torah) had specifically ordered His people (the Jews) not to gather food on the Sabbath but to gather it the day before. Were the Pharisees wrong or was Jesus (a Jew) and His disciples (also Jews) wrong? It must be remembered that the Jews were major players in the crucifixion of Jesus. To them, Jesus was a Torah abrogator.

There is a difference between gleaning, hand to mouth, and ordinary work. There is no significant difference between eating grain from a bowl and eating grain from the field. I know many think that Yeshua violated HaTorah, but I have yet to see where this happened. He did correct the construction of rabbinic fences, but He did not violate HaTorah.

As for Jesus not supporting homosexual behavior, no, He didn't ...mainly because He was totally SILENT on the issue. I wonder what Jesus would have said had the matter of gender-orientation been brought up?

I think He would have supported HaTorah, as Haven suggested in post#2.

[99percentatheism]

Haven

I love my brother, he drinks too much. When I ignore it I don't feel like I love him as much as when I tell him I don't like it.

I think it is that simple, true friends and truly loving people tell the truth.

That's the context that I try to have.

Drinking too much is an act, and a destructive one at that.

Being gay is not an act (any more than being Asian or female is an act), and it's not destructive.

"Gay" is a neologism of the 20th century and homosexuality is what it now represents along with its other older meanings. One donning their gay apparel is not a sinful act. One engaging in "gay behavior" is. It is most definitely an act. No one sins by not engaging in a sin.

Because of this, I fail to see how a Christian (or anyone) telling a gay person that they don't like them being gay is loving or anything other than hurtful and offensive.

It is irrelevant if you are not a Christian. Christians should live by what they believe and believe in based on the New Testament and the history of the Church. It is not very loving or tolerant to force Christians to celebrate the chosen sin life of another person. If you do not believe that gay sex acts are not sinful behavior, than live your life as you see fit and allow Christians to live their lives as they so choose.

[Haven]

No, I think that in a society that is permitted to enforce Torah law, the death penalty could be imposed on men found guilty of practicing buggery, subject to due process.

Edit for relevance of later post.

Let me get this straight (no pun intended). Under "ideal" conditions -- you would want people killed for engaging in consensual sex acts because some ignorant goat herders 3,000 years ago thought some magical sky god said that he hated the gays?

I'm sorry, but that is absolutely insane -- no better than the Taliban. Your post is a perfect example of why religious extremism is a cancer to the human race.

[99percentatheism]

Haven

Jesus never said a word about being a witch, or sacrificing your children in a fire pit.

Please notice that I never said a word about Jesus.

I recognize that completely.

I mentioned the Torah--the first five books of what Christians call the "Old Testament"--and how it condemned "men lying with men" along with frivolous things like wearing mixed fabrics, planting two kinds of crops in the same field, and trimming the edges of one's beard.

"Frivolous things?" The Israelites took these things deadly seriously. Ever notice that "foods" were dealt with in the New Testament but same gender sexuality was described in very negative ways?

Since bluethread (the person to which I was responding) said he was anti-gay because of the Torah calling (some forms of) male-on-male sex to'evah (usually translated "abomination," though a better translation is "ritually unclean"), I pointed out other "abominations" in the Torah in which he participated or saw no problem. That was the point of my remark.

How is the dramatizing of the word "anti-gay" change the fact that any honest Torah-observant Jew or Gospel-affirming Christian should be anti-sin? "Gay" is a neologism and even that tactic cannot mask the inappropriateness of same gender sexuality as being a sin. But . . ., if you are anti-Christian, you can believe and do anything you want. Choice is what it's all about.

Actions speak louder than words? Such as outlawing repentance? Is that what happened here and here?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/2 ... 37922.html

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... on-therapy

What does abusive "reparative" "therapy" (which numerous studies have shown does not work) have to do with repentance?

How are they not one and the same in Christian reality? Repentance is literally reparative therapy. In the most beautiful way. Forgiveness is an act of holiness. To Christians.

People are free to "repent" of anything they want (including homosexuality, whiteness, or the shapes of their noses),

Why would anyone want to repent of whiteness?

. . . but predatory religious fanatics can't use pseudoscientific nonsense to cause psychological (and sometimes physical) harm to innocent people.

How many people are trapped in the environment of psychology and will never be allowed to leave it. If I were to describe what I believe psychology is, just from observing the secular world and its ways, I would get banned.

Are you positing that the APA and "psychology" has authority over Christianity?

A YES or NO will suffice.

[Hatuey]

How many people are trapped in the environment of psychology and will never be allowed to leave it. If I were to describe what I believe psychology is, just from observing the secular world and its ways, I would get banned.

Seriously? You can't even describe how you define an entire discipline of modern scientific medicine? Can you use code words, and private mail me the meanings?

[99percentatheism]

It is the responsibility of "the gay community" to end the accusatory and litigious actions towards Christians that will not, have not and cannot endorse homosexuality.

This will never happen. Christian extremists (obviously not all Christians are discriminatory) are free to believe what they want, but when they want to actively discriminate against gay people (for example, in housing, employment, business, etc.), they should expect to get sued.

So you DO want Christians, Christianity and The Church under the authority of gay pride activists? So this "gay agenda" thing is no joke.

That would appear to be the very definition of persecution (that charge I am derided so often for using against detractors and adversaries) if Christians are to be under the authority of anti-Christian, political extremists.

[99percentatheism]

How many people are trapped in the environment of psychology and will never be allowed to leave it. If I were to describe what I believe psychology is, just from observing the secular world and its ways, I would get banned.

Seriously? You can't even describe how you define an entire discipline of modern scientific medicine? Can you use code words, and private mail me the meanings?

Let's not derail the thread. That being said (written) you can send me a PM: How many people are on psychotropics these days? How many people are now under the authority of a therapist? Uhhh, I better stop.

Back to the OP. "Love," in Christian reality, is encouraging the sinner to repent. No matter the sin, or how it is excused away, or how it has been altered by neologism and political propaganda.

[99percentatheism]

No, I think that in a society that is permitted to enforce Torah law, the death penalty could be imposed on men found guilty of practicing buggery, subject to due process.

Edit for relevance of later post.

Let me get this straight (no pun intended). Under "ideal" conditions -- you would want people killed for engaging in consensual sex acts because some ignorant goat herders 3,000 years ago thought some magical sky god said that he hated the gays?

I'm sorry, but that is absolutely insane -- no better than the Taliban. Your post is a perfect example of why religious extremism is a cancer to the human race.

How many hospitals, colleges, universities, outreach programs and "missions" to the poor and needy have been instituted by Christian extremists? Including outreach programs to people that engage in homosexuality? Probably too many to count. Even in California and Massachusetts.

The Gospel was brought to us all by Christian extremists. While it is used as a pejorative by the adversaries of Christians, it (The Gospel) is still making people's lives better everywhere it is preached, embraced and lived.

China on course to become 'world's most Christian nation' within 15 years

The number of Christians in Communist China is growing so steadily that it by 2030 it could have more churchgoers than America

"It is a wonderful thing to be a follower of Jesus Christ. It gives us great confidence," beamed Jin Hongxin, a 40-year-old visitor who was admiring the golden cross above Liushi's altar in the lead up to Holy Week.

"If everyone in China believed in Jesus then we would have no more need for police stations. There would be no more bad people and therefore no more crime," she added.

- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... years.html