Christian "Love" for "Homosexuals"

[Haven]

Christian fundamentalists often claim to "love" lesbians, gays, and bisexuals (who they invariably label "homosexuals"), while at the same time actively opposing gay rights, including marriage equality, hate crimes laws, and even decriminalization of same-sex relationships. This seems ridiculous to me, as love implies support, but these individuals certainly don't support LGB people.

Debate question: Is it possible to love gay, lesbian, and bisexual people while opposing gay rights?[/i

[Haven]

You are correct that this is the rule for those who wish to be Adonai's people. However, I see no example of Yeshua supporting homosexual behavior or violating Torah in an y way. Yes, I do believe that "(i)f a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination".

(emphases mine)

I assume you also view wearing mixed fabrics and planting fields with two different kinds of crops to be "abominations" (to'evah), since they are also against the Torah?

The Torah, by the way, never mentions sex between women, so -- by your worldview -- it must be OK?

[KCKID]

However, I see no example of Yeshua supporting homosexual behavior or violating Torah in any way.

Well, were not the Pharisees, those who considered themselves loyal to God and true to the Torah, the most bitter, and deadly, opponents of Jesus (and vice verse) and His message? It seems that these people who claimed to hold true to the letter of the often cruel Torah certainly believed that Jesus violated the Torah. And, apparently ...He did. An example that springs to mind is when they accused Jesus of being disobedient to the Sabbath-command when He and His disciples gathered and ate food (grain) on that day. God (as per the Torah) had specifically ordered His people (the Jews) not to gather food on the Sabbath but to gather it the day before. Were the Pharisees wrong or was Jesus (a Jew) and His disciples (also Jews) wrong? It must be remembered that the Jews were major players in the crucifixion of Jesus. To them, Jesus was a Torah abrogator.

As for Jesus not supporting homosexual behavior, no, He didn't ...mainly because He was totally SILENT on the issue. I wonder what Jesus would have said had the matter of gender-orientation been brought up?

[99percentatheism]

However, I see no example of Yeshua supporting homosexual behavior or violating Torah in any way.

Well, were not the Pharisees, those who considered themselves loyal to God and true to the Torah, the most bitter, and deadly, opponents of Jesus (and vice verse) and His message?

You mean Jesus and His fundamentalist extremist followers? Those called Disciples and Apostles? When you read the New Testament, you see nothing that can even be slightly defined as a gay agenda. The whole idea of Christians getting sued by the gay community and their legion of allies looks more like what the Romans did to the Christian extremists that opposed the lascivious licentiousness of Roman culture Nero "married" two men), a culture comfortable with homosexuality. The Pharisees were religious men that invented new and strict religious beliefs where none existed before. Looking at what gay theology is now inventing out of whole cloth and then making all follow or else get sued, and you see a similar mix of the religious authority and the secular society grow again. Notice that the Pharisees were in league with Roman (secular power and authority). Look at this quote from the author of this thread:

. . . but when they want to actively discriminate against gay people (for example, in housing, employment, business, etc.), they should expect to get sued. - Haven

Would the "Apostle" Paul - a Tent Maker by trade - have made a tent for a gay wedding? One could possibly say YES, but that is hardly the same thing as loving homosexuality. In fact, the very words of Paul says otherwise.

It seems that these people who claimed to hold true to the letter of the often cruel Torah certainly believed that Jesus violated the Torah.

How similar this sounds to the accusation that Christians do the same thing as anyone else these days. Jesus and His followers were persecuted by BOTH the Sanhedrin and the Roman authorities working together. Sound familiar? The gay community is using secular laws (as Haven mentions above) to "sue" Christians that want to live as Jesus taught.

And, apparently ...He did. An example that springs to mind is when they accused Jesus of being disobedient to the Sabbath-command when He and His disciples gathered and ate food (grain) on that day. God (as per the Torah) had specifically ordered His people (the Jews) not to gather food on the Sabbath but to gather it the day before. Were the Pharisees wrong or was Jesus (a Jew) and His disciples (also Jews) wrong? It must be remembered that the Jews were major players in the crucifixion of Jesus. To them, Jesus was a Torah abrogator.

Jesus was executed by secular laws used by the Sanhedrin Members that were "yoked with" the Roman legal system. Jesus got sued by the pop culture for not following along with it.

As for Jesus not supporting homosexual behavior, no, He didn't ...mainly because He was totally SILENT on the issue.

He reasserted that marriage was man and woman/husband and wife.

By the way, He was silent on child sacrifice too. Porn, "open marriages," and a host of other things that one "could" consider un-Christian behavior. So, does that license all un-Christian behavior 'cuz Jesus never said a word about it?

I wonder what Jesus would have said had the matter of gender-orientation been brought up?

Why not ask the gay churches that have invented an answer?

What about a Pornography orientation? How do people possess a sexual orientation to enjoy watching other people on a tv screen having sex? What about prostitution? Jesus never said a word about supporting and engaging in prostitution? Is prostitution an excusable sexual orientation? There ARE people that say they enjoy being a prostitute and paying for sex with one. And, it is a sexual behavior that harms no one, and is between "consenting adults." AND of course, Jesus never said a word about prostitution.

One "scholar" (JD Crossan) posits that Jesus was probably eaten by dogs after he was killed on the Cross. And Jesus never said that he wouldn't be eaten by dogs after he died on the Cross.

If it is an ever-changing civil right to invent a new religion out of things that Jesus is not quoted as saying, I doubt that will lead to the life Jesus DID talk about. . . And Jesus did talk about what a marriage consists of: A man and woman/husband and wife.

Something tells me that when the US Supreme Court one day takes on the "LGBT community v. Christian "extremists" case . . . What Jesus did say will defend the Christian "extremists" once again.

“I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

. . .

So do not be afraid of them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

Love means telling the Truth.

[99percentatheism]

You are correct that this is the rule for those who wish to be Adonai's people. However, I see no example of Yeshua supporting homosexual behavior or violating Torah in an y way. Yes, I do believe that "(i)f a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination".

(emphases mine)

I assume you also view wearing mixed fabrics and planting fields with two different kinds of crops to be "abominations" (to'evah), since they are also against the Torah?

The Torah, by the way, never mentions sex between women, so -- by your worldview -- it must be OK?

When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there.

- Deuteronomy 18

Jesus never said a word about being a witch, or sacrificing your children in a fire pit.

But it is safe to say, that there is/are actions and behaviors, that says it all in regards to anyone being a follower of Jesus (a Christian extremist). One of the most extreme behaviors is the act of repentance for sins committed. A part of being a "Christian extremist" is the fact that anyone may be a follower by engaging in extremist acts that counter the world and its ways. Even when it comes in the guise religious hypocrisy:

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,� he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?�

“What is written in the Law?� he replied. “How do you read it?�

He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’�

“You have answered correctly,� Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.�

But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?�

In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

“Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?�

The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.�

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.�

Actions speak louder than words? Such as outlawing repentance? Is that what happened here and here?

:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/2 ... 37922.html

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... on-therapy

Love does not affirm wrongdoing. It moves to change it.

But it is clear that "the world and its ways" has another definition of what love is. Actions for sure, but not always the kind that is affirmed in the New Testament.

[Joab]

You are correct that this is the rule for those who wish to be Adonai's people. However, I see no example of Yeshua supporting homosexual behavior or violating Torah in an y way. Yes, I do believe that "(i)f a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination".

(emphases mine)

I assume you also view wearing mixed fabrics and planting fields with two different kinds of crops to be "abominations" (to'evah), since they are also against the Torah?

The Torah, by the way, never mentions sex between women, so -- by your worldview -- it must be OK?

When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there.

- Deuteronomy 18

Jesus never said a word about being a witch, or sacrificing your children in a fire pit.

But it is safe to say, that there is/are actions and behaviors, that says it all in regards to anyone being a follower of Jesus (a Christian extremist). One of the most extreme behaviors is the act of repentance for sins committed. A part of being a "Christian extremist" is the fact that anyone may be a follower by engaging in extremist acts that counter the world and its ways. Even when it comes in the guise religious hypocrisy:

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,� he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?�

“What is written in the Law?� he replied. “How do you read it?�

He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’�

“You have answered correctly,� Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.�

But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?�

In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

“Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?�

The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.�

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.�

Actions speak louder than words? Such as outlawing repentance? Is that what happened here and here?

:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/2 ... 37922.html

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... on-therapy

Love does not affirm wrongdoing. It moves to change it.

But it is clear that "the world and its ways" has another definition of what love is. Actions for sure, but not always the kind that is affirmed in the New Testament.

Are you claiming to do as Jesus commanded?

[Wootah]

Christian fundamentalists often claim to "love" lesbians, gays, and bisexuals (who they invariably label "homosexuals"), while at the same time actively opposing gay rights, including marriage equality, hate crimes laws, and even decriminalization of same-sex relationships. This seems ridiculous to me, as love implies support, but these individuals certainly don't support LGB people.

Debate question: Is it possible to love gay, lesbian, and bisexual people while opposing gay rights?[/i

I love my brother, he drinks too much. When I ignore it I don't feel like I love him as much as when I tell him I don't like it.

I think it is that simple, true friends and truly loving people tell the truth.

That's the context that I try to have.

[Haven]

I love my brother, he drinks too much. When I ignore it I don't feel like I love him as much as when I tell him I don't like it.

I think it is that simple, true friends and truly loving people tell the truth.

That's the context that I try to have.

Drinking too much is an act, and a destructive one at that.

Being gay is not an act (any more than being Asian or female is an act), and it's not destructive. Because of this, I fail to see how a Christian (or anyone) telling a gay person that they don't like them being gay is loving or anything other than hurtful and offensive.

[Haven]

Jesus never said a word about being a witch, or sacrificing your children in a fire pit.

Please notice that I never said a word about Jesus.

I mentioned the Torah--the first five books of what Christians call the "Old Testament"--and how it condemned "men lying with men" along with frivolous things like wearing mixed fabrics, planting two kinds of crops in the same field, and trimming the edges of one's beard.

Since bluethread (the person to which I was responding) said he was anti-gay because of the Torah calling (some forms of) male-on-male sex to'evah (usually translated "abomination," though a better translation is "ritually unclean"), I pointed out other "abominations" in the Torah in which he participated or saw no problem. That was the point of my remark.

Actions speak louder than words? Such as outlawing repentance? Is that what happened here and here?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/2 ... 37922.html

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... on-therapy

What does abusive "reparative" "therapy" (which numerous studies have shown does not work) have to do with repentance? People are free to "repent" of anything they want (including homosexuality, whiteness, or the shapes of their noses), but predatory religious fanatics can't use pseudoscientific nonsense to cause psychological (and sometimes physical) harm to innocent people.

[bluethread]

Sorry, double post.

[bluethread]

You are correct that this is the rule for those who wish to be Adonai's people. However, I see no example of Yeshua supporting homosexual behavior or violating Torah in an y way. Yes, I do believe that "(i)f a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination".

If you truly believe this then you would also believe that those who violate this command should be put to death, would you not? And, of course, there are more commands in the Torah - that you would also believe in, I guess? - that call for the execution of those that violate a number of these commands. How does one determine which, out of all of those rather ludicrous (to modern thinking) commands, one believes in and which ones they do not? Moreover, those commands that DO call for the death penalty, "...am I morally obligated to kill violators myself or is it okay to call the police?"*

*Quoted by Martin Sheen from the TV series West Wing.

You are obligated to call the police. Due process is a Torah principle. Since, that present authorities would not recognize that statute nothing would come of it.