Just how virtuous is faith really?

[OnceConvinced]

This thread is inspired by a question Divine Insight asked recently, questioning just why we should consider faith virtuous.

Theists talk of faith as if being faithful is some kind of great virtue. Something that is so crucial to our well being. Sure, the bible tells us this, but really why is faith so virtuous? Why is it so important to a god?

I especially ask this from a non-theist perspective, why should anyone see faith as virtuous? As something desirable?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 8 by theStudent]

What we cannot see..
We have confidence in the laws that govern the universe, such as gravity.
We have faith that if we use a magnet to retrieve a metallic object, we likely will succeed.
We have faith that if we make a kite, an there is a good wind, our kite will likely fly.

Both wind and magnetic fields can easily be made visible with a little colored smoke and some iron filings. Gravity is quantifiable as well. This example has nothing to do with faith. There is direct physical evidence easily available for these things. Might I suggest the classic bowling ball held over the foot experiment. Count on getting a very definitive result each time.

What we hope for...
We accept employment, expecting that we will get paid.
We plant crops with the assurance that the seeds will sprout.

And reasonable expectations prove to be valid a reasonable amount of the time.

Faith in a creator - God - is the same. It is based on evidence of his existence, and trust in his promises, which are considered reliable.

And then there is religious faith. I posted this to you last Sunday (5/5) in another string, but you never responded. Not a problem. It's still relevant, and so I will post it to you again.


People often confirm that God is there for them answering their prayers. When they get that promotion they have been praying for, or when their team wins the big game. Just as they prayed He would. And yet when a psycho comes into a classroom full of six year old's armed with a hand gun and an intent to shooting each one in the head at point blank range, or when a tornado causes a brick church wall to collapse on and kill worshipers in the very ACT of praying to God... in other words when faith comes face to face with physical reality, physical reality inevitably prevails. And God is nowhere to be found. A God who is not there for these individuals and who does not act at a moment of extreme physical peril is in no way different from a God who never existed to begin with.

In 1994 a tornado hit the Goshen Alabama Methodist Church during Sunday service, causing the walls of the church to collapse. Twenty people died including six children. Why would God allow the deaths of those in His own house of worship, including the most innocent, who were there in the very act of worshiping him, when all He had to do was to prevent the walls from collapsing? The problem is that when put to the test, make believe is invariably unaffected by the harsh realities of real life. If a wall falls on you, or a mad man shoots you in the head, make believe does not serve as protection. Even for innocent children.
http://www.nytimes.com/1994/04/03/us/pi ... tornado-an...

In 2012, after shooting and killing his own mother, a mentally unstable man went to the Sandy Hook Elementary School and methodically shot 20 six year olds and a teacher in the head. A Supreme Being would really have come in handy that day. Did God just sit there and watch the whole thing? Or was he distracted, too busy fulfilling the mundane prayers of others? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hoo ... l_shooting

The point is, in real life what we actually observe is that when the chips are down and faith is confronted by reality, reality will ALWAYS win out. When the chips are down and a Supreme Being would really REALLY come in handy, God, invisible unknowable but assumed to exist anyway God, will invariably act in exactly the same manner as a God who isn't actually there. In fact a God who refuses to act even in the face of the ultimate crisis of life and death for the most innocent of His followers is a God who corresponds in every way to A GOD WHO NEVER EXISTED TO BEGIN WITH! What exactly is the difference? This is as close to an empirical test for the actual existence of God as one might reasonably hope for. And in these sorts of make or break tests, the result for the question "does God exist," invariably corresponds in every way to a negative finding.

Now let me make it clear. I do not blame God for what occurred at the Sandy Hook Elementary School, in EXACTLY the same way that I hold no grudge against Santa for not coming to my house last Christmas.

[JehovahsWitness]

why should anyone see faith as virtuous? As something desirable?

Virtuous is defined as that which is morally good. Morals are highly subjective, a pedophile would no doubt consider himself "moral" or "good" in some way. In short the question is like asking ...

"Why should anyone see grapefruit as tasty?" The question is formulated in a way that could imply "Grapefruits are untasty? We know grapefruits are distastful because ** I ** don't like grapefruits, so "why should anyone (have a different view to my own and...) view them as tasty as soemthing desirable?" The answer of course is, grapefruits are not universally percieved in the same way and some people like grapefruits because they enjoy the taste, appreciate their nutritional value, like the colour or any number of other reasons.

In short because they perceive them as positive and recieve benefits from them.

"Why should anyone see faith as virtuous?" See above, just substitute the word "grapefruit" for "faith".


JW

[ttruscott]

This thread is inspired by a question Divine Insight asked recently, questioning just why we should consider faith virtuous.

Theists talk of faith as if being faithful is some kind of great virtue. Something that is so crucial to our well being. Sure, the bible tells us this, but really why is faith so virtuous? Why is it so important to a god?

I especially ask this from a non-theist perspective, why should anyone see faith as virtuous? As something desirable?

The virtue of faith, that is, a hope based on trust not proof is that it not only opens up the truly deepest part of a person's desires (that which they hope for) but that it is not coerced by the proof.

If GOD asked for someone to marry HIM and in the interest of full disclosure not only claimed to be GOD but proved it, who would ever turn HIM down? No one. Even if they thought HE was a jerk and they hated the idea of having to bow to someone else they would do it to avoid hell. The only way He could avoid forcing them to vote against their free will is to not prove anything but to ask them to accept HIM on faith (unproven hope) without proof. This is the only way HE could make full disclosure of every aspect of HIS claims and all the consequences of their decision WITHOUT coercing the decision in any way in the least!

And if this methodology does not seem acceptable I ask for the disgruntled to offer their own method of how HE can find all those who want to marry HIM from those who don't without coercing anyone's free will. Our GOD is not into rape and will only marry those who accept HIS proposal by their free will, uncoerced by HIS divinity or power.

This is how the belligerent question of the non-believer is answered. Faith is salvation!

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 11 by Tired of the Nonsense]

Why would God allow the deaths of those in His own house of worship, including the most innocent, who were there in the very act of worshiping him, when all He had to do was to prevent the walls from collapsing? The problem is that when put to the test, make believe is invariably unaffected by the harsh realities of real life.

Precisely. Student talks about his faith having evidence to back it up. Well...imagine if the walls just sort of floated above the heads of the worshippers in this situation. THAT would be evidence to strongly indicate the presence of a god who cares about his followers. Why, he even suspends gravity to save them!
Oh wait, no that didn't happen.

[theStudent]

This thread is inspired by a question Divine Insight asked recently, questioning just why we should consider faith virtuous.

Theists talk of faith as if being faithful is some kind of great virtue. Something that is so crucial to our well being. Sure, the bible tells us this, but really why is faith so virtuous? Why is it so important to a god?

I especially ask this from a non-theist perspective, why should anyone see faith as virtuous? As something desirable?

With regard to faith being virtuous.
Faith is a quality that when exercised, allows a Christian to demonstrate the driving force behind his or her belief.
For example
James 2:14-26

14 Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? 15 If a brother or a sister is lacking clothing and enough food for the day, 16 yet one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,� but you do not give them what they need for their body, of what benefit is it? 17 So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead. 18 Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.� 19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. 20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled that says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,� and he came to be called Jehovah’s friend. 24 You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same manner, was not Raʹhab the prostitute also declared righteous by works after she received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way? 26 Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

When a Christian has strong faith, he/she exercises that faith. It is demonstrated by their works - what they do. So they do what is right.

Since faith is from God, it is virtuous.
It is an admirable quality and attribute, both to God, who loves what is righteous. And to Christian who love what is right.
Those who do lot love righteousness, do not consider faith virtuous.

Virtue is also a quality in itself, which is built on faith.
So the more faith one has, the more virtuous, he/she will be.
2 Peter 1:2-8 2 

May undeserved kindness and peace be increased to you by an accurate knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 for his divine power has granted us all the things that contribute to life and godly devotion through the accurate knowledge of the One who called us by his own glory and virtue. 4 Through these things he has granted us the precious and very grand promises, so that through these you may become sharers in divine nature, having escaped from the world’s corruption produced by wrong desire. 5 For this very reason, put forth all earnest effort to supply to your faith virtue, to your virtue knowledge, 6 to your knowledge self-control, to your self-control endurance, to your endurance godly devotion, 7 to your godly devotion brotherly affection, to your brotherly affection love. 8 For if these things exist in you and overflow, they will prevent you from being either inactive or unfruitful regarding the accurate knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The moral fruit or works produce by those who demonstrate faith, is virtuous in God's eyes.

[PghPanther]

[Replying to post 1 by OnceConvinced]

The most common reason I get of an individual claiming they are person of faith as being a virtue is that they are claiming to be accountable above and beyond humankind to a supposed personal God..............and that this would temper their possibility of abusing people and/or situations.

Of course we have lots of evidence of the exact opposite among those of faith in positions of power sometimes but most people think it is better to have a "restrainer" when nobody else is looking....

But in my post Christian life I realize that it takes more integrity to do what is right "when know one is looking or knows what you are doing".... when you don't think there is a supernatural being baby sitting your intent with consequences .........

I know many people who claim they are a person of faith tell me that if I don't believe a personal God exists then why don't I just go crazy and not worry about any consequences of my sin.........

Well if that is their attitude without have a God then they should go right on believing in a God and being a person of faith about that.............cuz me thinks a person who has the attitude of no God.....no rules...........could be a sociopath to begin with........

[Kenisaw]

[Replying to post 1 by OnceConvinced]

My simple definition first of faith: To believe in something without having proof and/or to have hope that something is true until proven otherwise.

A personal example: I have faith that my wife will love me for the rest of her life.

I think it can be virtuous in that it can show you have a positive outlook. You choose to believe in something good even if it can't be proven to be true.

Obviously this is not exhaustive, but there you go.

If I may, I would disagree that you have no proof that your wife loves you. If she takes care of you, does things for you, agrees to spend the rest of her life with you, that is evidence of love.

[Kenisaw]

This thread is inspired by a question Divine Insight asked recently, questioning just why we should consider faith virtuous.

Theists talk of faith as if being faithful is some kind of great virtue. Something that is so crucial to our well being. Sure, the bible tells us this, but really why is faith so virtuous? Why is it so important to a god?

I especially ask this from a non-theist perspective, why should anyone see faith as virtuous? As something desirable?

Virtue, like all things associated with morals, is a purely subjective topic created by humans to define groups of things. If someone thinks a particular action or thing or stance is virtuous, that stance is not rooted in anything empirical or objective.

[benchwarmer]

[Replying to post 17 by Kenisaw]

If I may, I would disagree that you have no proof that your wife loves you. If she takes care of you, does things for you, agrees to spend the rest of her life with you, that is evidence of love.

You are correct that I have proof that my wife has loved me so far. However, my point was that I can only believe or have faith that she will continue to do so for the rest of her life.

I can certainly irritate the heck out of her, so I really do need some faith to believe she will continue to love me

Your point is well taken though. I do have some evidence of previous love so I can expect it to continue if I don't do anything egregious. I'm not basing my faith on no evidence, but I can't prove 100% she will love me 10 years from now.

[JehovahsWitness]

Virtue, like all things associated with morals, is a purely subjective topic created by humans to define groups of things. If someone thinks a particular action or thing or stance is virtuous, that stance is not rooted in anything empirical or objective.

My point exactly

Virtuous is defined as that which is morally good. Morals are highly subjective, a pedophile would no doubt consider himself "moral" or "good" in some way. In short the question is like asking ...

"Why should anyone see grapefruit as tasty?" The question is formulated in a way that could imply "Grapefruits are untasty? We know grapefruits are distastful because ** I ** don't like grapefruits, so "why should anyone (have a different view to my own and...) view them as tasty as soemthing desirable?" The answer of course is, grapefruits are not universally percieved in the same way and some people like grapefruits because they enjoy the taste, appreciate their nutritional value, like the colour or any number of other reasons.

In short because they perceive them as positive and recieve benefits from them.

"Why should anyone see faith as virtuous?" See above, just substitute the word "grapefruit" for "faith".

It seems to me the question is being asked in a way as to imply "we all know that faith is NOT virtuous, so why would anyone be so unreasonable as to presume it is?"

Granted this may not have been the intended implication, but if it was as you say it is based on a false premise, ie that it can be established empirically that faith is NOT "virtuous".