Zzyzx wrote:
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According to CARM (Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry), free will is:
Hmmmm...I insist that a free will cannot be subject to any force that can't be denied whether internal, that is, as a part of their creation including a created nature, their dna or family or culture values, or external, that is by threats that cannot be ignored, mind control etc.
NOR can it be constrained from choosing any of the options that make up the content of the decision, such as an inability to see the choice in fullness or the inability to choose any of the options because of their nature etc.
Coercion is defined as: the practice of forcing another party to act in an involuntary manner by use of intimidation or threats or some other form of pressure or force
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coercion
...ok but I include our creation, that is, if we are created with no ability to see evil or to choose it or if we are created with a desire to be good only then we do not have a free will but are coerced by the nature of our creation.
If a person is told they are free to choose to do or not do something but if they choose to do it they and their family will be tortured, imprisoned and/or executed, have they been coerced by intimidation or threat? Do they make a free will choice in that instance?
An intimidating threat can indeed coerce a free will so the choice is not free. But I have noticed that some people claim that the mere fact of a warning of a consequence is deemed threatening.
In law, for a threat to be real, that is actionable by reason of self defence, it must be immediate. That is, if the threat is, do that and in 300 years your ancestor will burst spontaneously into flames has no threat value, no meaning to the current context. Also, if a five year old says, "I hate you; I'm going to kill you!" and starts kicking your knee, any action of self defence is unjustified becasue it is obvious that the
threat has no value.
And finally, a WARNING of a natural consequence looming due to a certain behaviour is not deemed to be a threat either. If you wave a lantern and call for cars to stop because a bridge is out ahead, no one can shoot you for threatening them with driving off a broken bridge ! because the nature of a warning is such that you have the time and the opportunity to do all you can to verify the trustworthiness of the lantern waver and perhaps even the state of the bridge. Knowledge of suggested consequences is not a threat but an influence, that is, something that does not force the decision, (a coercion) but rather should be involved in, should be part of the decision making process but does not force it.
If a person is told that they are free to choose to worship one of the proposed gods or not, but if they choose not they will suffer unpleasant eternal consequences (or whatever the threat), have they been coerced by intimidation or threat?
If there is no immediacy, if they have as much time as they need to make up their minds about the trustworthiness of the person warning them and time to weight the pros and cons of all the consequences to their satisfaction before they choose, then the mention of the consequences is a warning, not a threat, but hopefully it is an influential warning, that is, given careful consideration but totally free of any coercion.
IF GOD displayed HIMself in full anger and power mode while HE warned us against other gods, who could stand against HIM? We would all be coerced and threatened totally. BUT if he appeared like anyone else and with no proof or histrionics warned us about the natural consequences of idol worship, then we would call that an influence as it does not force us to change our minds about anything.
Where, exactly, does free will (choice free of coercion) apply according to Christian beliefs?
For me, all sin / evil is the creation of people by their free will decision to disobey or to rebel against HIS deity or HIS plan for HIS creation.
The true choice to reject HIS deity or to accept HIS deity by our free will is the crux of all subsequent reality.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
