The Golden Rule's problems

[Willum]

The Golden Rule, has its first known origins with the Goddess Ma'at and a story about unlawful claiming of property.
It was either taken from there, or rediscovered by Thales of Greece in about 500 BCE.

It is recapped in the Bible in Matthew 7:12,

Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you: Do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets

Or in the OT, Leviticus 19:18

You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

It sounds great on the surface, but is it the ultimate slippery slope for morality?

The key to recognize the problem is that we all think we are good.
The serial killers of the worlds, the rapist, the you name its of villainy are aware of and can probably justify their actions with the Golden Rule.

Premise of the topic: The Golden Rule sets every single individual as a standard for morality, and appeals to vanity to delude us into its being correct.
It seems like a recipe for disaster if you ask me.

Bad people will do bad things, because their personal version of the rule, allows it. They would say to themselves, "If I were this given person [whom I am doing bad things to], I would expect this kind of treatment from me."

So the topic of debate is obvious, is the Golden Rule the metric for behavior that it is employed as?

[bjs]

The key to recognize the problem is that we all think we are good.
The serial killers of the worlds, the rapist, the you name its of villainy are aware of and can probably justify their actions with the Golden Rule.

Premise of the topic: The Golden Rule sets every single individual as a standard for morality, and appeals to vanity to delude us into its being correct.
It seems like a recipe for disaster if you ask me.

You seem to be saying if we follow the Golden Rule then serials killers want to be murdered and rapist others to rape them.

This is neither rational nor accurate. Killers do not wish to be killed. Rapists do not wish to be forced to have sex in a manner, situation, or from a person they do desire. Thieves do not want the things they own to be stolen. Cruel people do not wish to be treated cruelly.

If someone commits rape then no matter what justifications they come up with they are breaking the Golden Rule. The very definition of rape makes it impossible for a person to want to be genuinely raped.

Bad people will do bad things, because their personal version of the rule, allows it. They would say to themselves, "If I were this given person [whom I am doing bad things to], I would expect this kind of treatment from me."

The Golden Rule is not “Treat people they way they expect you to treat them.� Nor is it, “Treat people the way you expect them to treat you.� The Golden Rule is, “Treat others the way you want to be treated.�

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 2 by 1213]

Itis interesting how often women seem to like rapists. 1213

This is a quote from yourself, no?
What you have said in reply to my first post seems to exemplify your own quote.

Please notice, I don’t claim women like rapists. But in some cases it seems to be so. For example I have read a study that tells it is very common fantasy of women, which is not really same as they would really want it, also that how rapists are treated and not easily judged gives me the notion that maybe for some it is really ok.

But isn't is just as bad to even suggest that women may like being raped? This is the type of thinking that has been around in the past and it's been stomped down on. There is a movie maker called Russ Meyer who was popular in the 70s for making nudey movies where on the odd ocassion a woman was being raped but then started to enjoy it. Russ was often blamed for encouraging rape by suggesting that hey, it's ok to rape, because ultimately they will enjoy it.

And don't think this is ludicrous. It's not. A few years back I came across a Christian member here who in PMs tried to tell me that if a gay person starts touching another member of the same sex inappropriately, then most likely that other person is going to become aroused and enjoy it, even if they aren't gay. That's the sort of warped thinking we have in this world and it should be slammed down immediately.

So to even suggest it might be true that women like rapists is horrendous IMO. I personally think it's one of the worst things anyone has ever said on this forum. What if just one reader took you seriously? What if just one reader things "Ok, maybe if I rape a woman, she'll actually like it?"

[Willum]

[Replying to post 11 by bjs]

You seem to be saying if we follow the Golden Rule then serials killers want to be murdered and rapist others to rape them.

Very close, but serial killers will think that they believe their victims want or deserve to be murdered, and that the raped want sex.
There is a certain asymmetry to the scenarios that a developed mind will recognize, while the naive will ignore in place of literal mindedness. Rather like a negative and a positive making a negative.

The very definition of rape makes it impossible for a person to want to be genuinely raped.

Well if you are going to go into defining things a certain way, you have lost any ability to practically describe a situation.

It is not about whether the victim wants to be raped, it is about whether the rapist feels the victim may want it or is deserving.

User 1213 stated very plainly in one of these posts how interesting it was that women seem to like rapists.

I presume he is a man, I presume he follows the Golden Rule, I presume that says it all both disgustingly and succinctly.

If we do the math off of that - just one person here makes that claim, and is ostentatiously not a rapist, just imagine how a rapist will function.

You said:

“Treat others the way you want to be treated.�

And for masochists, or sadomasochists? Those who act aggressively?

Sorry the Golden Rule false flat and promotes the very obscenity it seems to oppose.
Jagella's Platinum Rule functions much better.

But he has had the advantage of freethinking and 2300 years of philosophy, which folks who say "Jesus is God, and God is perfect thus always right," do not have.

[bjs]

[Replying to post 11 by bjs]

You seem to be saying if we follow the Golden Rule then serials killers want to be murdered and rapist others to rape them.

Very close, but serial killers will think that they believe their victims want or deserve to be murdered, and that the raped want sex.

You seem to be just making stuff up. Do you have any evidence to suggest that murders believe their victims desire to be murdered? The idea is clearly counter-intuitive, since most murders act in a way that prevents their victims from resisting. If they believe their victims desired death then murders could simply invite the person over by saying, “Come to this remote place so that I can kill you.�

I suppose a perverse mind could convince itself that a person deserved death, but it is objectively false to say that murders believe their victims desire to be murdered.

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 11 by bjs]

You seem to be saying if we follow the Golden Rule then serials killers want to be murdered and rapist others to rape them.

Very close, but serial killers will think that they believe their victims want or deserve to be murdered, and that the raped want sex.

You seem to be just making stuff up. Do you have any evidence to suggest that murders believe their victims desire to be murdered? The idea is clearly counter-intuitive, since most murders act in a way that prevents their victims from resisting. If they believe their victims desired death then murders could simply invite the person over by saying, “Come to this remote place so that I can kill you.�

I suppose a perverse mind could convince itself that a person deserved death, but it is objectively false to say that murders believe their victims desire to be murdered.

What about euthenasia? Person A may think to themselves that if I were suffering like that, then I'd want to be killed. So then, applying the golden rule he would think Person B probably wants to be killed too.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 14 by bjs]

I suppose a perverse mind could convince itself that a person deserved death, but it is objectively false to say that murders believe their victims desire to be murdered.

You read 1213's quote, and yet you still pursue this line of reasoning?
If 1213 is to be assumed a "non-perverse mind" with that attitude, what irrational logic do you think a perverse mind would have? Perhaps they do wish to be murdered, or be treated so poorly that murdering someone is the most logical way they see to get that treatment!
Yes a perverse mind!

Of course a perverse mind!

Whom else?

When a perverse mind, or even a not perverse mind employs the Golden Rule, is sets them up as an absolute moral authority!!!!
That is the issue and problem we are discussing!
Please review the OP.

You seem to be just making stuff up.

Well, addressing your claim, and not you personally, someone saying something like that would be defending a morally reprehensible religion they have been indoctrinated into. Obviously I am not making anything up, but taking the argument ad absurdum - taking the preposterous claim, and bringing it to it absurd, logical conclusion.

[Eloi]

The Golden Rule is about empathy. A person without the ability to feel empathy can be very harmful, and it is not necessary to be religious to know that.

[Willum]

So it would fall flat on people without empathy, (sociopaths) another good reason a divine God would not employ the rule!
Great point!

[Eloi]

[Replying to post 18 by Willum]

My God is so good that He is giving time to repentance ... but He won't allow harmful people to stay on Earth. He will destroy all impious, because He is empathic with the people who suffer, not with the people who make others to suffer. Is not that what we human beings want? ... the end of injustice, of wars, of corruption, of harmful people who are always machining how to hurt innocent people? Oh, yes, my God is very empathic, and will be.

[Zzyzx]

.
We all realize, don't we, that no one's favorite 'god' or book has legitimate claim to the 'Golden Rule' (Ethic of Reciprocity) -- and that many cultures and ideologies present the same idea . . .

The Golden Rule is the principle of treating others as you want to be treated. It is a maxim that is found in many religions and cultures.[1] It can be considered an ethic of reciprocity in some religions, although other religions treat it differently. The maxim may appear as a positive or negative injunction governing conduct:

Treat others as you would like others to treat you (positive or directive form)
Do not treat others in ways that you would not like to be treated (negative or prohibitive form)[1]
What you wish upon others, you wish upon yourself (empathic or responsive form)[1]

The idea dates at least to the early Confucian times (551–479 BC), according to Rushworth Kidder, who identifies that this concept appears prominently in Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, and "the rest of the world's major religions".[2] The concept of the Rule is codified in the Code of Hammurabi stele and tablets (1754-1790 BC).[citation needed] 143 leaders of the world's major faiths endorsed the Golden Rule as part of the 1993 "Declaration Toward a Global Ethic".[3][4] According to Greg M. Epstein, it is "a concept that essentially no religion misses entirely", but belief in God is not necessary to endorse it.[5] Simon Blackburn also states that the Golden Rule can be "found in some form in almost every ethical tradition".[6]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule