Apologetics of contradiction

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Difflugia
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Apologetics of contradiction

Post #1

Post by Difflugia »

PinSeeker wrote:There are absolutely no contradictions in the Bible. Nowhere does God ever contradict Himself.
When dismissing contradictions in the Bible, are there any apologetic arguments that are considered out of bounds or beyond the pale?

Are there any contradictions in the Qur'an, the Book of Mormon, or any other holy work that can't be reconciled even by biblical standards?

Or is it a case of, to misquote Syndrome from The Incredibles, when everyone's inerrant, no one is?

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Re: Apologetics of contradiction

Post #11

Post by Mithrae »

JehovahsWitness wrote: A contradiction arises ONLY when one or more are physically impossible. For example, he drowned in London at 3pm on Friday and was burnt at the stake at 3:01 on the same day in Paris. The two statements are physically impossible to harmonize thus you have a "true" contradiction.
Obviously God raised him to life and teleported him to Paris. Only people who with a presuppositional commitment to philosophical naturalism would imagine a contradiction between those statements... at least if they occurred in the Book.


You raise some worthwhile points, as does Difflugia. I wouldn't consider any of the examples suggested by DI in post #3 to be contradictions for example, for reasons similar to some of those you've outlined. On the other hand it certainly is the case that inerrantist apologists must frequently stoop to absurdity in defence of some better examples. The sequence of events at Jesus' tomb is a particularly good example: No two gospels agree exactly where and when angelic apparitions occurred, such that for every word in all four to be true there must have been no fewer than six angels appearing in four groups, if memory serves! That's not a 'physically impossible' scenario... it's just completely absurd.

Matthew 1 states that there were 14 generations from David to the exile/Jeconiah, whereas Kings and Chronicles clearly list 18; Matthew omits four in order to get his 14/14/14 pattern: In this case we can't even blame honest error.

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Re: Apologetics of contradiction

Post #12

Post by Difflugia »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Difflugia wrote:Are there any contradictions in the Qur'an, the Book of Mormon, or any other holy work that can't be reconciled even by biblical standards?
I dont know either book well enough to say
I think my favorite weirdness of the Qur'an isn't strictly a contradiction by apologist rules, but is one of the clearest indications that the text isn't divinely inspired. In that sense, it's more like the different deaths of Judas or the the sermons on both the mount and the plain. I like it because it gives the Qur'an a bit of personality.

Muhammad (or whoever the actual author was) confused Mary, the mother of Jesus with Miriam, sister of Moses and Aaron. Both are "Maryam" in Arabic, so legends got confused making Jesus the nephew and contemporary of Moses in at least part of the Qur'an.

To me, it makes for an interesting insight into what the writer(s) of at least those particular stories were "going for." I also like it because it's painfully obvious (like the deaths of Judas and sermon locations) that's what happened, but Muslim apologists bend over backwards to claim that it didn't. Here is the commentary for Sūrah 19 (Maryam), Ayah 28 from The Study Quran:
That Mary is addressed as sister of Aaron is not, according to commentators, meant to indicate that she was the biological sister of the prophet Aaron, brother of Moses. This would be chronologically impossible, although Mary’s father’s name is ʿImr�n (66:12), as is that of the prophets Moses and Aaron, according to Islamic tradition. Some commentators explain that the name Aaron signified righteousness among the Jews of this time, and so the title sister of Aaron was meant to indicate that Mary was like Aaron in righteousness. Another explanation is that the name Aaron was common among the Israelites and that Mary had a half brother named Aaron. The most widely held view among the commentators is that Mary was a descendant of the prophet Aaron and the title sister of Aaron is meant as a reference to her noble lineage; see also 3:33–34c.
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Re: Apologetics of contradiction

Post #13

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Mithrae wrote: I wouldn't consider any of the examples suggested by DI in post #3 to be contradictions for example, for reasons similar to some of those you've outlined.

I agree. I have also looked at the examples you provided and there are no contradictions there either.

I didn't feel I needed to explain that an omission isnt a contradiction, as that may be taken to be insulting the intelligence if those reading. Obviously if Jane refers to three people in the room but Jack to five. We need a statement from Jane that there were ONLY three and no more, to have a possible contradiction. And even then she will have to provide the precise time (hours and minutes) or make the express statement that there were never anymore than three at any moment in time to for us to establish a possible contradiction. And that only if we can establish it impossible they were referrjng to different rooms. You can perhaps see why it is difficult to establish legitimate contradictions with bible accounts.


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Re: Apologetics of contradiction

Post #14

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Mithrae wrote: No two gospels agree exactly where and when angelic apparitions occurred, such that for every word in all four to be true there must have been no fewer than six angels appearing in four groups, if memory serves! That's not a 'physically impossible' scenario... it's just completely absurd.

This is a curious statement. Are you suggesting, if we accept that angels exist, it's absurd that there are more than six of them?


Clarification appreciated,


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Post #15

Post by Wootah »

These meta threads always make me wonder why not just post the contradiction?

I think atheists assume the contradictions must be there because other atheists say they are.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Post #16

Post by Tcg »

Wootah wrote:
I think atheists assume the contradictions must be there because other atheists say they are.
That's an interesting thought. Of course if you intend to turn that thought into an argument of some sort, you'd need to provide evidence to support it. Absent that, it's nothing but an ad hominem. Not a very sound approach to reasoned debate.


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Post #17

Post by Wootah »

Tcg wrote:
Wootah wrote:
I think atheists assume the contradictions must be there because other atheists say they are.
That's an interesting thought. Of course if you intend to turn that thought into an argument of some sort, you'd need to provide evidence to support it. Absent that, it's nothing but an ad hominem. Not a very sound approach to reasoned debate.


Tcg
I think it obvious I am asking for forum users to post their contradictions. It is hard for me to do this for them.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Apologetics of contradiction

Post #18

Post by Mithrae »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Mithrae wrote: No two gospels agree exactly where and when angelic apparitions occurred, such that for every word in all four to be true there must have been no fewer than six angels appearing in four groups, if memory serves! That's not a 'physically impossible' scenario... it's just completely absurd.
This is a curious statement. Are you suggesting, if we accept that angels exist, it's absurd that there are more than six of them?
Yes, that's obviously what I'm saying :roll:
  • Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it. His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men. But the angel answered and said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come inside, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly and tell His disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold, I have told you.â€�

    And entering the tomb, they saw someone else, a young man clothed in a long white robe sitting on the right side; and they were alarmed. But he said to them, “Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He is risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid Him. But go, tell His disciples—and Peter—that He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him, as He said to you.�

    And it happened, as they were greatly perplexed about this, that behold, two more men stood by them in shining garments. Then, as they were afraid and bowed their faces to the earth, these two men also to them, “Why do you seek the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galilee, saying, ‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.’ �

    Then Mary ran and came to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.� Peter therefore went out, and the other disciple, and were going to the tomb. So they both ran together, and the other disciple outran Peter and came to the tomb first. And he, stooping down and looking in, saw the linen cloths lying there; yet he did not go in. Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; and he saw the linen cloths lying there, and the handkerchief that had been around His head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded together in a place by itself. The four angels had all got bored and gone away by now. Then the other disciple, who came to the tomb first, went in also; and he saw and believed. For as yet they did not know the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead. Even having been ordered by three separate groups of angels to pass on the message, Mary and the other women just hadn't bothered to tell them the good news. Then the disciples went away again to their own homes.

    But Mary stood outside by the tomb weeping. The poor lass had been scared literally out of her wits by repeated celestial apparitions, after all. And as she wept she stooped down and looked into the tomb. And there she saw a fifth and six angel in white sitting, one at the head and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. Then they said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?�

    She said to them, “Because they have taken away my Lord, and for the life of me I can't even guess where they have laid Him. If only there were some small clue, some tiny hint as to what had happened!�
No physically impossible contradictions there - just an absurd story about the bureaucratic cock-ups of Heaven's messenger department and the obvious stupidity and unreliability of the supposed witnesses to Jesus' resurrection :lol: Acknowledging the human error in the author's accounts would make a lot more sense, but nah... let's stick with the dogma that they are all correct in every word they wrote.

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Post #19

Post by Tcg »

Wootah wrote:
Tcg wrote:
Wootah wrote:
I think atheists assume the contradictions must be there because other atheists say they are.
That's an interesting thought. Of course if you intend to turn that thought into an argument of some sort, you'd need to provide evidence to support it. Absent that, it's nothing but an ad hominem. Not a very sound approach to reasoned debate.


Tcg
I think it obvious I am asking for forum users to post their contradictions. It is hard for me to do this for them.
Posts 3, 6, 10, 11, and 12 do just that. Of course it is obvious from this question stated in the OP:
  • "When dismissing contradictions in the Bible, are there any apologetic arguments that are considered out of bounds or beyond the pale?"
That the focus here is on the apologetics arguments used in an attempt to resolve the contradictions and any limits that may apply to them, not on the contradictions themselves.


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Re: Apologetics of contradiction

Post #20

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Mithrae wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Mithrae wrote: No two gospels agree exactly where and when angelic apparitions occurred, such that for every word in all four to be true there must have been no fewer than six angels appearing in four groups, if memory serves! That's not a 'physically impossible' scenario... it's just completely absurd.
This is a curious statement. Are you suggesting, if we accept that angels exist, it's absurd that there are more than six of them?
Yes, that's obviously what I'm saying
Well I dont see why. If God can create one he can arguably create more than six, indeed the bible speaks of hundreds of millions of angels.





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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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