Born again?

[McCulloch]

Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

Jesus said

• Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.
  Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
  Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

In what sense do Christians claim to have become born anew? Do the foolish become wise? Does the person get a new personality? What?

[Goat]

It automatically happens though I'm sure it can be accentuated by those who may have been instrumental in the conversion. Any approximation to the "divine" will bring wisdom.

One must wonder why many of the people who claim to have the closest connection to the divine are the least wise then. I see that as a repeating pattern. The people I see that seem the most spiritual are often those who don't think about being 'born again'

Ahh, but you're confusing the question. I don't believe it was whether becoming a Christian or otherwise made one wiser (or less stupid as it were) than the rest but whether wisdom was gained. And besides, you enter tricky waters when you go about deciding who is the least wise and such.

Ah, but I have seen people go through the born again process, and become LESS wise than they were before.

Hypocrisy. increased intolerance and the projection of 'feeling of superiority' (because they are saved, and you aren't) are the 3 big problems.

[McCulloch]

3) Does the person get a new personality? What?Yes, they do. They now believe in the atoning sacrifice of the Savior. That has to change anyone's personality to some degree.

In that sense, every change in belief is also a change in one's personality, yet we cannot speak about every change in belief as a rebirth.

In what sense Born Again? - Spiritually into an eternal life and walk with God. I was "dead" before receiving Christ and was "born" new. It's tough to put into concrete words. But hopefully you get my drift.

It's tough to put into concrete words perhaps because the meaning is subjective and incomplete. Birth is the beginning of a new life. By saying that you must be born again, you are saying that a new life has started and the old life has ended. Yet, I see no indication that this is so. Even is there is a profound change on conversion, anything we use to define a person's life is continuous from the time before to the time after, personality, memories, physiology, abilities, etc.

Does the person get a new personality? What?

It's an internal rebirth. It doesn't always have to show in the personality, but usually does.

Is that just another way of saying this is a non-falsifiable claim?

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, and hopefully can say this respectfully, but I guess when you ask this, it is one of the reasons I wonder about your past "Christian" experience. ("Unless a man be born again......). True Christianity depends on this rebirth.

True Christianity depends on this rebirth, yet those who claim to have experienced it cannot objectively of convincingly describe it. Yes, I was told and was led to expect that I would be born again when I became a Christian. The odd thing is that aside from trying to convince myself that this was true, it really did not happen. I was still me. This raises the question why not. Could it be that my conversion was not genuine? Maybe I really did not believe therefore I did not experience the new birth. Could it be that the new birth really did happen, but I did not detect it? None of the believers can adequately describe the new birth, so maybe it escaped my detection. Or is it that the new birth is just a metaphor, not related to something concrete and real?

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. I Cor 1:18

Do the foolish become wise?

Yes, no eventually..all of the above. The wisdom of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, though. It is where Rom 12:1-2 begins.

Rom 12:1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Now it seems to me that Paul is contradicting the idea of a new birth. Birth is an event, a new beginning. Paul's description of the renewing, seems to be a continual process, more akin to growth from childhood to adulthood than birth.

[Vanguard]

It automatically happens though I'm sure it can be accentuated by those who may have been instrumental in the conversion. Any approximation to the "divine" will bring wisdom.

One must wonder why many of the people who claim to have the closest connection to the divine are the least wise then. I see that as a repeating pattern. The people I see that seem the most spiritual are often those who don't think about being 'born again'

Ahh, but you're confusing the question. I don't believe it was whether becoming a Christian or otherwise made one wiser (or less stupid as it were) than the rest but whether wisdom was gained. And besides, you enter tricky waters when you go about deciding who is the least wise and such.

Ah, but I have seen people go through the born again process, and become LESS wise than they were before.

Hypocrisy. increased intolerance and the projection of 'feeling of superiority' (because they are saved, and you aren't) are the 3 big problems.

Fair enough. I can see these would be problems. Remember though, you seem to be injecting an either/or definition of wisdom. I am not suggesting once someone accepts the Savior they are therefore wise but rather they have entered a long process of gaining wisdom. Much of this journey toward that end may not even be discernable to a 3rd party but they are on a journey toward more wisdom nonetheless.

When I hear Christians espouse these more unsavoury attitudes (i.e., hypocrisy, increased intolerance, and the like) I can't help but think these very attitudes lay dormant long before Christianity entered their lives. And now with Christianity these tendencies come to the forefront for all to see. It is best this way as it presents an opportunity for correction and transformation - certainly qualities of one who has gained wisdom.

[Vanguard]

3) Does the person get a new personality? What?Yes, they do. They now believe in the atoning sacrifice of the Savior. That has to change anyone's personality to some degree.

In that sense, every change in belief is also a change in one's personality, yet we cannot speak about every change in belief as a rebirth.

Perhaps. I probably go through several "belief changes" daily though I don't know they amount to anything discernable in my personality (you'll have to ask my wife! ). Maybe the accumulation of these more minor changes will transorm my personality over time?

Accepting the Savior in one's life though is a bit more than believing you have a better shortcut to the supermarket. Both are changes in belief though one now comes with the potential for transformation immediately. Yes, the personality does undergo a change.

[McCulloch]

Accepting the Savior in one's life though is a bit more than believing you have a better shortcut to the supermarket. Both are changes in belief though one now comes with the potential for transformation immediately. Yes, the personality does undergo a change.

Yes, so let's make a more apt comparison. How about comparing it with the belief that one would be a good CEO? If I believed that I would be a good CEO, it would transform my life. But I question the immediacy of either.

[Vanguard]

Accepting the Savior in one's life though is a bit more than believing you have a better shortcut to the supermarket. Both are changes in belief though one now comes with the potential for transformation immediately. Yes, the personality does undergo a change.

Yes, so let's make a more apt comparison. How about comparing it with the belief that one would be a good CEO? If I believed that I would be a good CEO, it would transform my life. But I question the immediacy of either.

I haven't a beef with you on this though it is obvious to me you are seeking to make the point that accepting the Savior in one's life is no different in degree than many other important decisions one can make. Again, I don't believe the thread contemplated whether there were other decisions/changes that could substantially change an individual but rather whether being "born again" constituted a change in personality. Accepting the Savior, IMO, does change one's personality. And I guess believing one would be a good CEO can also do the same. And so what's the point?

This would probably be a moot if I were discussing this with someone who believed in the Savior. If the Savior does not exist why would it carry any different an impact than believing I could be president?

[Goat]

It automatically happens though I'm sure it can be accentuated by those who may have been instrumental in the conversion. Any approximation to the "divine" will bring wisdom.

One must wonder why many of the people who claim to have the closest connection to the divine are the least wise then. I see that as a repeating pattern. The people I see that seem the most spiritual are often those who don't think about being 'born again'

Ahh, but you're confusing the question. I don't believe it was whether becoming a Christian or otherwise made one wiser (or less stupid as it were) than the rest but whether wisdom was gained. And besides, you enter tricky waters when you go about deciding who is the least wise and such.

Ah, but I have seen people go through the born again process, and become LESS wise than they were before.

Hypocrisy. increased intolerance and the projection of 'feeling of superiority' (because they are saved, and you aren't) are the 3 big problems.

Fair enough. I can see these would be problems. Remember though, you seem to be injecting an either/or definition of wisdom. I am not suggesting once someone accepts the Savior they are therefore wise but rather they have entered a long process of gaining wisdom. Much of this journey toward that end may not even be discernable to a 3rd party but they are on a journey toward more wisdom nonetheless.

When I hear Christians espouse these more unsavoury attitudes (i.e., hypocrisy, increased intolerance, and the like) I can't help but think these very attitudes lay dormant long before Christianity entered their lives. And now with Christianity these tendencies come to the forefront for all to see. It is best this way as it presents an opportunity for correction and transformation - certainly qualities of one who has gained wisdom.

It seems to me, in the cases I am thinking of, 'accepting the lord and savior for the remission of their sins' was a block to wisdom. Begining 'born again' was all about them. In their interest about what sacrifice Jesus was supposed to have done for them.. they forgot about some essential messages that are attributed to Jesus that seem so essential to living right. "What ever you do to the least of my brothers, you do to me".

Of course, I am coming from a works oriented tradition, and think it is someone actions that count, much more than their beliefs. It is the results that matter, and the concept of 'being born again' seems to get in the way of those results in many people.

[McCulloch]

I haven't a beef with you on this though it is obvious to me you are seeking to make the point that accepting the Savior in one's life is no different in degree than many other important decisions one can make.

I do challenge the assertion that it is different, not in degree but in kind. We could point out many different decisions we could make some great and some small. None of them could be described as a rebirth, not even the decision to believe in one or another messiah.

And so what's the point?

There is a claim that in some way, Christians start a new life when they become Christian. It appears to me that this is just a form of therapeutic self delusion. Believe that you are a new person and you can let go of any guilt that you may have, but there is no basis for the belief that you are reborn in reality.

[Vanguard]

It seems to me, in the cases I am thinking of, 'accepting the lord and savior for the remission of their sins' was a block to wisdom. Begining 'born again' was all about them. In their interest about what sacrifice Jesus was supposed to have done for them.. they forgot about some essential messages that are attributed to Jesus that seem so essential to living right. "What ever you do to the least of my brothers, you do to me".

Again, point well taken.

Of course, I am coming from a works oriented tradition, and think it is someone actions that count, much more than their beliefs. It is the results that matter, and the concept of 'being born again' seems to get in the way of those results in many people.

I too come from a "works oriented" tradition where actions are important. Don't forget though that the individual's actions are run through the prism of what they are capable of and not what you or I may think should be their actions. This makes a BIG difference. In other words, one man' s "wisdom" is another's "foolishness" - don't think for a second that it should be a similar template for all.

[twobitsmedia]

Does the person get a new personality? What?

It's an internal rebirth. It doesn't always have to show in the personality, but usually does.

Is that just another way of saying this is a non-falsifiable claim?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I have seen people converted where it was very clear, and then others where it was not so clear. I have been told that I do not have a transparent personality, so I don't always get "read" accurately.

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, and hopefully can say this respectfully, but I guess when you ask this, it is one of the reasons I wonder about your past "Christian" experience. ("Unless a man be born again......). True Christianity depends on this rebirth.

True Christianity depends on this rebirth, yet those who claim to have experienced it cannot objectively of convincingly describe it.

probably because it hinges on the word "spirit." Rebirth is through the spirit. The only way to describe "spirit" is "spirit." God is spirit. But that does not help much either. We might be able to put attributes to "God" and see a character of some kind, but that bends a lot toward subjectiveness more often than not, and to the nonbeliever and skeptic it really gets more skewered. Experiencing God is a unique experience that really has no comparison. I have heard people try and decribe it and it often comes across worse than no description at all.

Yes, I was told and was led to expect that I would be born again when I became a Christian. The odd thing is that aside from trying to convince myself that this was true, it really did not happen. I was still me.

I had a similar experience, as I was told that I must be born of the spirit and then I would speak in tongues, because I was told that anyone who is born againt HAS to speak in tongues. . As a skeptic, I had people pray for me over and over and nothing happened. They eventually gave up and said maybe it will come later. I then pretended it did and then they let me alone about it. I later realized this "tongue" stuff meant nothing and accepted the rebirth in the sprit for what is it...in the spirit. The change was very clear to me, not always noticeable to others.

This raises the question why not. Could it be that my conversion was not genuine?

I really cannot say. To me it is where debate breaks down. We can debate the semantics of religion and the Bible, but once someone goes beyond that it's really not debatebale without one calling the other a liar, or hallucinating, or deluding themselves, etc. There's no delusion, which is why I can say "God is" rather than "I believe God is." But I cannot produce my experience for you, nor can I produce God for you.

Maybe I really did not believe therefore I did not experience the new birth.

Interesting question that I have no answer to. I hear people on this forum say that all the time, and yet often in the same post ridicule "belief" in God. God is not mocked and can't be played. He knows who is real and who is not.

Could it be that the new birth really did happen, but I did not detect it?

There could be a case for that, but it's not the most common experience.

None of the believers can adequately describe the new birth, so maybe it escaped my detection.

The case would be that a person might be so string willed (like the Israelites in the desert) that God has to let them wander more than then ill eventually reign them in. The desert is a dry place.

Or is it that the new birth is just a metaphor, not related to something concrete and real?

Oh, it is very real

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. I Cor 1:18

Do the foolish become wise?

Yes, no eventually..all of the above. The wisdom of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, though. It is where Rom 12:1-2 begins.

Rom 12:1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Now it seems to me that Paul is contradicting the idea of a new birth. Birth is an event, a new beginning. Paul's description of the renewing, seems to be a continual process, more akin to growth from childhood to adulthood than birth.

I see Pauls statement as an addition to the rebirth. It enforces the idea that the rebirth is of the spirit, and so is the reknewing of the mind." It's all done by the spirit. The religious person will take it upon themselves and that will lead to a lot of frustration and disilusionment, which is what I think a lot of people who claim to be former Christians have had. Onceconvicned is one of the very few that has a different and deeper understanding, but then, the rebirth question makes me wonder again.