Free Will vs Predestination

discus70 · Post by **discus70** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:05 pm

I'm confused. The bible clearly states both are intertwined. Example, God new of Jesus's sacrifice while at the same time wants us to choose between good and evil. Predestination just doesn't make any sense to me. If predestination could ever in some kind of magical world be proven, my beliefs would reside with the atheists. If God had it in his "big plan" for African children to starve and be born with aids I would want no part of it. If God was in agreement over the death 6 million people during the Holocaust then I would rather choose not to be associated with this type of God.

If the God that so many claim to know has influence in our lives and everyday decisions you might as well go ahead and send me to hell because a God who picks and chooses over his own people is one very sick being. So people who try to convince me that God is a loving God better think twice about what it is their actually saying. There are only 3 possible outcomes to these conclusions. One, God is hands off and has nothing to do with us (which is where i stand) 2, God has influence in our everyday lives ( these actions would make a very unfair and unloving god in my opinion) 3, There is no God.

Please prove me wrong.

byofrcs · Post by **byofrcs** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:32 pm

dgruber wrote:
Believing in free will leads to believing in a God that is hands of. Believing in predestination is believing just the opposite. Seems pretty clear to me. An individual who believes we have freedom of choice and are accountable for our own actions can't possibly believe God is involved in our everyday life. An individual who try's to believes in both is a walking contradiction, not a person of faith.
I disagree. For example, God might lead you to a situation where you must use freewill to make an important decision.

This is my opinion on the freewill vs. predestination concept:

When you hold a pencil in your hands you can turn it in many different ways, look at the ends, the sides, etc. I believe this is how God sees time. I believe that God sees our lives similar to how we would look at a pencil. He can see it all at once and therefore knows what will happen but all of us have the freewill to choose to get there. This is just my opinion.

Put that pencil on the table point-down and call it an inverted pendulum. Where it goes is chaotic. Not even God can work out where it will land.

Seeing all sides to the pendulum and the fulcrum isn't going to predict some future event if that event has not yet taken place. If it has taken place and God is viewing a recording of the future and so predestination applies.

I can think of many things that are impossible to compute. Thus free-will and an impotent all-knowing God. I can thus conceive of circumstances in which God may try to decide where to lead your free-will and you will be led astray.

People should trust their own evolved understanding the Golden Rule. Thinking what God wants us to do is a hindrance of biblical proportions.

This is my opinion on free will.

discus70 · Post by **discus70** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:53 pm

This is a good point but only relative to people who have the ability to choose. This becomes a geographical and privileged explanation for both concepts. When a child is born with aids it was not his or her decision. In this case there is no free will, which would fall on the side of predestination.

By your argument your saying that Gold already new the potential for this happening but deiced to allow it anyway. This goes back to my first post. If the God that everyone claims to know is truly this vindictive then I want no association with that God. Therefore the only logical explanation for there even being a God if at all is that he has nothing to do with what goes on. If you really believe God chooses to come in and out of favor then you have to believe God has chosen people to suffer, starve, murder, rape and be harsh to all that he created.

JoeyKnothead · Post by **JoeyKnothead** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:18 pm

From Page 2 Post 11:
Dang good post byofrcs. I swear I bet your brain swells out your ear when you lay on your side.

From Page 2 Post 12:

discus70 wrote:This goes back to my first post. If the God that everyone claims to know is truly this vindictive then I want no association with that God. Therefore the only logical explanation for there even being a God if at all is that he has nothing to do with what goes on. If you really believe God chooses to come in and out of favor then you have to believe God has chosen people to suffer, starve, murder, rape and be harsh to all that he created.

I think this is a bit off. If God created everything, then it is only our understanding of this God that allows us to judge His actions. I can see if this God does something I consider atrocious, I'm gonna be sore about it. But, given He's God and all, and we can't seem to sort out His motives, I don't think we can say what is right or wrong by His thinking.
I used to think it was pretty bad for my dad to whoop me when I got in trouble, but I tell ya, after about a couple hours of not being able to sit down, I wasn't likely to make the same mistake more than a few times.
I didn't understand why I'd get in the one trouble of a whooping for the other trouble of being in trouble in the first place. It took me a spell to figure out if I didn't do the one thing I wouldn't have to do so much standing when I'da rather been sitting.

discus70 · Post by **discus70** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:30 pm

"But, given He's God and all, and we can't seem to sort out His motives, I don't think we can say what is right or wrong by His thinking. "

Really?? Your telling me just because you don't understand god, those bad things can be justified. WOW...I'm speechless.

arutledge · Post by **arutledge** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:12 pm

joeyknuccione wrote:>This is more opinion than fact, but I think it is a reasonable position, and I'm prepared to defend what I can and plow under what I can't<

I think this issue points to humans as the creator of God. I think this message has been sub/consciously tailored to a given audience. Where some folks need a loving, Oprah Winfrey Show type of God, then God is that. When folks need a more violent, When Animals Attack type of God, here ya go.
Humans come in a multitude of personalities, and so God must be such He can appeal to these different individuals. This can be observed in the many interpretations folks have of this God. I think the many denominations within a religion point to the adherent's underlying personalities, and expectations of what a God should be.
Here's a true story, and a good example of the OP in action. Right here up the road we got these two churches (google 'em), Dewberry Baptist Church 1, and Dewberry Baptist Church 2, over in Cleveland, Ga. Kinda like when there was a Mr. Wrestling 1, and a Mr. Wrestling 2. Anyway, it used to be one church. There were some of 'em thought God knows everything that's gonna happen, and there were just as many of the others saying nah-ah.
Now you just gotta know this kind of deal can't carry on for too long, and sure enough it finally came up to a boil, and there was this falling out. They were having a picnic one day, and these two brothers, just like some old Civil War story, these two brothers were on either side of the issue.
So they're eating their fried chicken there, and by all reports it was good, but they're eating that fried chicken there and one brother says to the other such as, "God knows what's gonna happen". Well you know that other brother there, he ain't gonna let that one slide after all's gone on, so he says such as, "Nah-ah". And sure enough they get to arguing back and forth.
So they carry on for a spell, and the one brother, he says such as, "God knows what's gonna happen." So the other one brother, he flings a chicken bone at the other one brother, and he says such as, "I bet He didn't know that was gonna happen!" Sure enough, this sets the whole place to arguing back and forth, and they finally just split up the church into two.
It just goes to show, folks'll have their own ideas about what God should be, or how God should carry on. Watch these folks close enough and you'll see they both have their part of the Bible that supports their side of the deal. I say this is because the very folks that wrote the Bible were just as diverse of opinion about what a proper God should be as folks are of an opinion about it now.

Thanks for your thoughtful comments. While it is certainly true that people have different views on God, I do not see how this has any bearing on the issue of whether God does or does not in fact exist. Many people do in fact pick and choose from the Bible and live out their faith in accordance with their own preferences. It does not follow from this that God does or does not exist.

Similarly, the question of whether or not free-will can be reconciled with predestination does not have any bearing on the question of Godâ€™s existence. It does not follow from the apparent contradiction between predestination and free-will that God does or does not exist.

What does follow from both of these considerations is simply that humans disagree about the nature of God, and that humans have found it difficult to understand how free-will and determinism can both be true.

JoeyKnothead · Post by **JoeyKnothead** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:16 pm

joeyknuccione wrote:"But, given He's God and all, and we can't seem to sort out His motives, I don't think we can say what is right or wrong by His thinking. "
discus70 wrote: Really?? Your telling me just because you don't understand god, those bad things can be justified. WOW...I'm speechless.

First, let me make sure it's noted I don't believe any gods exist. I'm just jumping right on across the whole evidence deal, and figuring what my position would be.

With that out of the way, what I'm getting at here is with all the religious texts saying this and that and those and them, how are we to figure out which one is correct?
So, I can't trust these religious texts to tell me what it is God's wanting, and why He's carrying on in a given manner. God ain't never told my anything, He don't visit me, He don't call, He don't write. Lacking any information about God's motives, I would say it's not quite right to try to judge these motives.
Of course, If God does something I consider wrong, I'm gonna whoop and holler, and carry on, and let Him know I disagree. But, how do I know I'm right? How do I know God does not have some greater idea about how folks oughta be punished?
I'm figuring, if Dad was a "whooper", and God is potentially so much more of a dad, then a whooping to Him might not mean a whole lot. He might think He's gotta do some really serious punishing to get his message across. Given Biblical claims of how us humans have disappointed God so many times, and in so many ways, who's to say how mad He gets?
If the Bible is to be believed, he done flooded us out, sent a bunch of us to Hell, and all kinds of carrying on trying to get His point across.
Of course I don't 'preciate any of this. I don't 'preciate Him treating any human like it's been claimed He has. If my sense of morals gets disturbed by His actions, I'm gonna be upset, and I'm gonna pitch a fit, but can I really say I know why God chose a particular punishment? I don't know the Guy, never met Him, don't know any of his kinfolk. I got nothing that tells me what God considers a right and proper course of action.

arutledge · Post by **arutledge** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:25 pm

discus70 wrote:Believing in free will leads to believing in a God that is hands of.

In fact, many people believe in free will and believe that God is not "hands off". Therefore, it is not true that believing in free-will "leads to" believing in a "hands-off" God.

discus70 wrote: Believing in predestination is believing just the opposite.

Many people who believe in predestination/determinism do not believe in God at all. So this does not seem to be true either.

discus70 wrote:Seems pretty clear to me. An individual who believes we have freedom of choice and are accountable for our own actions can't possibly believe God is involved in our everyday life. An individual who try's to believes in both is a walking contradiction, not a person of faith.

But you have not shown that there is a contradiction. You have simply stated the contradiction, and told us that it is unavoidable. Why should we accept this? If God acts in the world, how does it follow that free-will is an illusion?

catalyst · Post by **catalyst** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:55 pm

But you have not shown that there is a contradiction. You have simply stated the contradiction, and told us that it is unavoidable. Why should we accept this? If God acts in the world, how does it follow that free-will is an illusion?

I don't know if what i am about to write is where discus70 is coming from, but I provide this as an example.

Yup, I am going to make reference to the bible as that is where the god of christianity's traits and alleged abilities can be read about.

Judas is an example. The bible states that his fate was predetermined by Bible God, not even bible jesus could save Judas because he had to betray jesus or certain scripture *would* not be fulfilled.

Where is the free will here when "god" had already determined this fate? Is it not more a conditional will (which is the essence of the illusion - "choice" made to enable the predetermined conclusion/outcome), where as Judas may have made day to day choices, but none OF his choices were going to erase or change the already predetermined by "god" outcome?

dgruber · Post by **dgruber** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:42 pm

God cannot be completely hands off because there would not have been a Jesus. God cannot be completely hands on because then we would all be perfect since he would be controlling our every move.

You can argue this idea all around the world and back and I doubt we are ever going to reach any sort of agreement, but it is interesting listening to people's thoughts.

[byofrcs wrote]Seeing all sides to the pendulum and the fulcrum isn't going to predict some future event if that event has not yet taken place. If it has taken place and God is viewing a recording of the future and so predestination applies. [/quote]

You are taking the analogy too far. You are now making this pencil into a random event. I was simply using the pencil to show what I believe God's view might be. Predestination does not apply if he is "viewing a recording of the future." If He is creating this by controlling "puppets" then yes I agree with you. I don't believe that is how it works.

I can think of many things that are impossible to compute.

So can I but that doesn't make them imaginary or false.

I can thus conceive of circumstances in which God may try to decide where to lead your free-will and you will be led astray.

Thats nice. God is trying to lead us astray?

People should trust their own evolved understanding the Golden Rule. Thinking what God wants us to do is a hindrance of biblical proportions.

What people should do is up to their own discretion.

catalyst · Post by **catalyst** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:05 pm

What people should do is up to their own discretion

But regardless, if one believes in what is predetermined anyway, what difference will their "own discretion" make as to the alleged "already written" outcome?