Free Will vs Predestination

[discus70]

I'm confused. The bible clearly states both are intertwined. Example, God new of Jesus's sacrifice while at the same time wants us to choose between good and evil. Predestination just doesn't make any sense to me. If predestination could ever in some kind of magical world be proven, my beliefs would reside with the atheists. If God had it in his "big plan" for African children to starve and be born with aids I would want no part of it. If God was in agreement over the death 6 million people during the Holocaust then I would rather choose not to be associated with this type of God.

If the God that so many claim to know has influence in our lives and everyday decisions you might as well go ahead and send me to hell because a God who picks and chooses over his own people is one very sick being. So people who try to convince me that God is a loving God better think twice about what it is their actually saying. There are only 3 possible outcomes to these conclusions. One, God is hands off and has nothing to do with us (which is where i stand) 2, God has influence in our everyday lives ( these actions would make a very unfair and unloving god in my opinion) 3, There is no God.

Please prove me wrong.

[catalyst]

ER wrote:

Wrong. A lot of "what people are" depends on THEIR OWN PERSONAL CHOICES, which determine to a large degree what their experiences are (which often shape their beliefs

YOUR life manual disagrees with you, ER. There is no "free will" choice when the only options available to someone are the ones allegedly "actualised" by your manipulative "god".

Tell me ER, do you reckon you were chosen BY god to serve him, or do you reckon it was YOUR choice, given your life circumstances?

Not that I think you will actually reply to me ,as you rarely if ever do, but I thought I would just put the question out there regardless!

[Zzyzx]

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Wrong. A lot of "what people are" depends on THEIR OWN PERSONAL CHOICES, which determine to a large degree what their experiences are (which often shape their beliefs).

Are you saying that your favorite "god" did NOT create each person as they are – and did NOT know exactly what experiences they would have and what beliefs they would develop?

That sounds like a non-omniscient "god".

Are you saying that "god" decided only part of "what people are"? That is an interesting concept. What besides personal opinion indicates that is true?

Does "god" create people with a "general framework" so to speak leaving the details to the individual? If that was true, which has not been established, doesn't the framework influence, direct or determine what a person chooses?

I agree that your favorite "god" did not create humans . . . as they are or any other way.

[Zzyzx]

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Tell me ER, do you reckon you were chosen BY god to serve him, or do you reckon it was YOUR choice, given your life circumstances?

Not that I think you will actually reply to me ,as you rarely if ever do, but I thought I would just put the question out there regardless!

Discerning readers understand the significance of a person ducking difficult questions. Inability or unwillingness to answer signifies concession of the point less honorably than open acknowledgement, but still concession.

[PaulD]

Thank you for the rousing welcome : )

The idea of choice versus predestination reaches a climax in the context of salvation. Is our salvation predestined or do we have a choice about it?

Religions teach that at the heart of everything is a mystery. For us humans, making sense of everything is not an obligation or even a possibility. Christianity is no exception:

Ecclesiastes 11:5 – You cannot understand the activity of God, who does all things.

So it’s not surprising that, when it comes to salvation, we don’t understand how the Bible can teach choice and predestination at the same time. However, what we should do about that is, rather tellingly, left to our personal choice.

In fact, the Bible asks and answers this very topic in Acts 2:37

“When they heard this they were pierced to the heart. They asked Peter and the other apostles, ‘Brothers, what should we do?’ Peter answered them, “Repent and be baptized, everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ.�

[blipverts45]

Thank you for the rousing welcome : )

The idea of choice versus predestination reaches a climax in the context of salvation. Is our salvation predestined or do we have a choice about it?

With respect, I miss how there is any "climax?"

Religions teach that at the heart of everything is a mystery.

I would be curious to know if this is actual teaching or the response when one cannot answer. This is not directed at you, but I venture to guess that when one cannot explain, the easy way out is to say "it is a mystery."

Ecclesiastes 11:5 – You cannot understand the activity of God, who does all things

My Bible studies have indicated that Ecclesiastes is mostly the writings of Solomon as he learned wisdom and found most things to be vanity. Why would this particular verse be not a vain assertion on behalf of the author?

So it’s not surprising that, when it comes to salvation, we don’t understand how the Bible can teach choice and predestination at the same time. However, what we should do about that is, rather tellingly, left to our personal choice.

In fact, the Bible asks and answers this very topic in Acts 2:37

“When they heard this they were pierced to the heart. They asked Peter and the other apostles, ‘Brothers, what should we do?’ Peter answered them, “Repent and be baptized, everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ.�

I guess I am reading that it is a mystery but the answer is to repent, but it will stay a mystery?
I, then, have either (hopefully) misunderstood you, or find the statement questionable.....

[ST_JB]

I'm confused. The bible clearly states both are intertwined. Example, God new of Jesus's sacrifice while at the same time wants us to choose between good and evil. Predestination just doesn't make any sense to me. If predestination could ever in some kind of magical world be proven, my beliefs would reside with the atheists. If God had it in his "big plan" for African children to starve and be born with aids I would want no part of it. If God was in agreement over the death 6 million people during the Holocaust then I would rather choose not to be associated with this type of God.

If the God that so many claim to know has influence in our lives and everyday decisions you might as well go ahead and send me to hell because a God who picks and chooses over his own people is one very sick being. So people who try to convince me that God is a loving God better think twice about what it is their actually saying. There are only 3 possible outcomes to these conclusions. One, God is hands off and has nothing to do with us (which is where i stand) 2, God has influence in our everyday lives ( these actions would make a very unfair and unloving god in my opinion) 3, There is no God.

Please prove me wrong.

Great confusion comes always to those who put other meaning to a particular belief or term reserved to religious interpretation alone.

I am saying that the post above from discus70 was full of misconception of the term in contrast to theological teachings in the Christian faith. No wonder why it makes a lot of confusions to whosoever venture to discuss the subject with mediocre understanding.

Predestination in the Christian faith is not about God directing the actions of man to do the most evil things to others. The exercise of Free Will is not about the destiny of those who were murdered by Hitler or struck by famine to death.

Predestination is the immutable decree of eternal happiness.. that is the ultimate end of man. The term predestination is reserved for the Divine decree of the happiness of the elect.

The punishment of eternal damnation (Hell) of the wicked is not predestination but
the Divine act of reprobation.

[ST_JB]

Here is the thing. If everyone interprets the bible differently and decides to believe this or that, then what is the purpose of the bible? All of it becomes relative to the individuals situation. How does a christian go about converting or spreading the message if the faith they base their beliefs around can't be agreed upon and only has significance to that individuals interpretation. I can walk into a catholic church and they believe their right, walk into a baptist church and they believe their right. The selling point for their faith, or truth is that the scripture is the word of God. If this is really true then why deter from it? Why try to rationalize the text at all?I great example I like to use for the christian faith is the selling of cars. Its like trying to sell a car (christian faith) with no engine but telling people it has one of the most powerful (Jesus). Then when the salesmen (preacher) has decided that all the brain washing has done the job, the customer attempts to drive the motor less vehicle (bible) but quickly realizes that it doesn't work and their only "logical" explanation for what has occurred is....."its Gods will."

I think the point I was trying to make was that the Christian faith is a relative and subjective faith. It's only as good as the persons interpretation. The more I start to think about it the more I realize that my initial discrepancy with free will and predestination doesn't matter anymore. Christians will just decide to right off any contradictions as they see fit.

I must say that you are right there in some degree discus70.

I was a little bit amazed how an agnostic/atheist like you was able to deduce/ understand the concept of establishing one true Church. I mean the problem of today’s religion especially in the Christian line is that, anyone who feels they have understood the word of God (Bible) are free to form a new local church and interprets the bible according to his own understanding and at times personal needs. The Church of England was founded based on the personal requirements of King Henry VIII. In the 20th century such fundamentalists are sprouting everywhere like mushrooms, bringing good news to anyone who is also lost and misguided.

Christian faith is not relative and subjective. Long before there were other Christian denominations, long before there were Baptists, Protestants and even Moslems, Christian faith maintains universal faith among all faithful all throughout the Christendom. Acceptance of faith is not subjective and relative. If you want to be a Christian, the belief in purgatory is as inevitable as heaven and hell. There is no ‘selective’ belief system. One must embrace the faith according to the general teaching of the Church.

[Zzyzx]

I was a little bit amazed how an agnostic/atheist like you was able to deduce/ understand the concept of establishing one true Church. I mean the problem of today’s religion especially in the Christian line is that,

Which is the "one true church"? How is that established with certainty and by what criteria and by what person's authority?

anyone who feels they have understood the word of God (Bible) are free to form a new local church and interprets the bible according to his own understanding and at times personal needs.

Is starting a "new local church" a modern condition? Isn't that how Christianity was formed from Judaism? When did it stop being acceptable?

Are people NOT "allowed" to "interpret the bible according to their own understanding"?

Who, exactly, is authorized to decide what interpretations of the bible are "correct" and who is allowed to start a church?

Long before there were other Christian denominations, long before there were Baptists, Protestants and even Moslems, Christian faith maintains universal faith among all faithful all throughout the Christendom.

Are you claiming that there was unity of belief in Christendom at some point? When exactly would that have been?

If you want to be a Christian, the belief in purgatory is as inevitable as heaven and hell.

Are you speaking for Christianity or for yourself or for a favored sect?

There is no ‘selective’ belief system. One must embrace the faith according to the general teaching of the Church.

Which church? There are tens of thousands of different sects, denominations, splinter groups, cults, etc. Which one speaks for all?

[ST_JB]

I was a little bit amazed how an agnostic/atheist like you was able to deduce/ understand the concept of establishing one true Church. I mean the problem of today’s religion especially in the Christian line is that,

Which is the "one true church"? How is that established with certainty and by what criteria and by what person's authority?

anyone who feels they have understood the word of God (Bible) are free to form a new local church and interprets the bible according to his own understanding and at times personal needs.

Is starting a "new local church" a modern condition? Isn't that how Christianity was formed from Judaism? When did it stop being acceptable?

Are people NOT "allowed" to "interpret the bible according to their own understanding"?

Who, exactly, is authorized to decide what interpretations of the bible are "correct" and who is allowed to start a church?

Long before there were other Christian denominations, long before there were Baptists, Protestants and even Moslems, Christian faith maintains universal faith among all faithful all throughout the Christendom.

Are you claiming that there was unity of belief in Christendom at some point? When exactly would that have been?

If you want to be a Christian, the belief in purgatory is as inevitable as heaven and hell.

Are you speaking for Christianity or for yourself or for a favored sect?

There is no ‘selective’ belief system. One must embrace the faith according to the general teaching of the Church.

Which church? There are tens of thousands of different sects, denominations, splinter groups, cults, etc. Which one speaks for all?

I believe you missed my point.

[Zzyzx]

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I believe you missed my point.

OH, you had a point?

I see unsupported claims and contentions. Can you address any of the issues or questions raised by your post?

And, would you kindly state your "point" clearly for all to see?