Ends and means

[bernee51]

From the accounts in the gospels, the torture and execution of the man known as Jesus of Nazareth was a hoorendous and barbaric act carried out for reasons contrived by the power structures at the time.

Without this act, however, the salvation claimed by christians would not have occured.

By these brutal acts those who believe benefit through 'eternal life'.

Was this act evil?

Is it a case of the means being justified by the ends?

[Flail]

I just went ahead and reported all of whirlwind's posts as "refuses to support claims".

I lack the time it takes to continually challenge claims only to be told such as "someone wrote it in a book".

Joey, you are mistaken. I haven't refused anything. I support with His word. It is you and others that refuse to accept that Word.

You have refused to debate.

[Flail]

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I do not, however, recognize pretenders or “representatives� as authentic.

Do you ever attempt to use bible quotations to prove that the bible or its stories are true?

I use Biblical quotes as God directs me.... I trust you realize by now that those you recognize as "pretenders" or "authentic" are of no interest to me. Our goals are not the same. So, ignore His Words if you wish. It is your choice. What comes to mind are the words of Jesus when He said, "Why do ye not understand My speech? even because ye cannot hear My word.

There are many who hear voices and attribute those voices to God instructing them in various ways...including members of the Taliban, Jim Jones, Joseph Smith, Paul, Mohamed,David,Timothy McVeigh, Rev Moon and the various and sundry mentally ill etc etc...what evidence can you provide to distinquish the voices you hear from the ones they heard?

[WinePusher]

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I do not, however, recognize pretenders or “representatives� as authentic.

Do you ever attempt to use bible quotations to prove that the bible or its stories are true?

I use Biblical quotes as God directs me.... I trust you realize by now that those you recognize as "pretenders" or "authentic" are of no interest to me. Our goals are not the same. So, ignore His Words if you wish. It is your choice. What comes to mind are the words of Jesus when He said, "Why do ye not understand My speech? even because ye cannot hear My word.

There are many who hear voices and attribute those voices to God instructing them in various ways...including members of the Taliban, Jim Jones, Joseph Smith, Paul, Mohamed,David,Timothy McVeigh, Rev Moon and the various and sundry mentally ill etc etc...what evidence can you provide to distinquish the voices you hear from the ones they heard?

Christians do believe that God talks to them and sometimes instructs them to do specific things. So, to illustrate your point

Person A (a christian) hears a voice in their head that says "Go kill Person B."

Now, Person A, being a christian, believes the Bible to be the word of God. So Person A will read the bible and take it into consideration. The Bible specifically says THOU SHALT NOT KILL.

So, Person A can realize that the voice telling him to go and kill person B is not from God because it goes aganist God's teachings.

[Flail]

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I do not, however, recognize pretenders or “representatives� as authentic.

Do you ever attempt to use bible quotations to prove that the bible or its stories are true?

I use Biblical quotes as God directs me.... I trust you realize by now that those you recognize as "pretenders" or "authentic" are of no interest to me. Our goals are not the same. So, ignore His Words if you wish. It is your choice. What comes to mind are the words of Jesus when He said, "Why do ye not understand My speech? even because ye cannot hear My word.

There are many who hear voices and attribute those voices to God instructing them in various ways...including members of the Taliban, Jim Jones, Joseph Smith, Paul, Mohamed,David,Timothy McVeigh, Rev Moon and the various and sundry mentally ill etc etc...what evidence can you provide to distinquish the voices you hear from the ones they heard?

Christians do believe that God talks to them and sometimes instructs them to do specific things. So, to illustrate your point

Person A (a christian) hears a voice in their head that says "Go kill Person B."

Now, Person A, being a christian, believes the Bible to be the word of God. So Person A will read the bible and take it into consideration. The Bible specifically says THOU SHALT NOT KILL.

So, Person A can realize that the voice telling him to go and kill person B is not from God because it goes aganist God's teachings.

Isn't a primary motive for being Christian the forgiveness of sin? Doesn't your God forgive all that you do in violation of His Commandments? The OT says 'thou shalt not kill'...the NT says all killing by Christians is forgiven'. Your God seems to change his 'mind' on occassion, making it hard to trust these 'voices'.

[Benoni]

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I do not, however, recognize pretenders or “representatives� as authentic.

Do you ever attempt to use bible quotations to prove that the bible or its stories are true?

I use Biblical quotes as God directs me.... I trust you realize by now that those you recognize as "pretenders" or "authentic" are of no interest to me. Our goals are not the same. So, ignore His Words if you wish. It is your choice. What comes to mind are the words of Jesus when He said, "Why do ye not understand My speech? even because ye cannot hear My word.

There are many who hear voices and attribute those voices to God instructing them in various ways...including members of the Taliban, Jim Jones, Joseph Smith, Paul, Mohammed,David,Timothy McVeigh, Rev Moon and the various and sundry mentally ill etc etc...what evidence can you provide to distinguish the voices you hear from the ones they heard?

You have a mixture here. Some here heard the voice of God; most here hear the voice of self/religion. Jim Jones, Joseph Smith, Mohammed, Rev. Moon all heard their own voice and claimed it was God and had a religous agenda. McVeigh was not even religious and had a polical agenda.

Paul, Timothy and David should yes heard the voice of God

[whirlwind]

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I do not, however, recognize pretenders or “representatives� as authentic.

Do you ever attempt to use bible quotations to prove that the bible or its stories are true?

I use Biblical quotes as God directs me....

Are you "directed" to use bible quotes to prove that the bible or its stories are true in these forums?

He led me here. It is written that His peculiar people....believers, must use His Words. His Words are true.....

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of Him who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous light;

I trust you realize by now that those you recognize as "pretenders" or "authentic" are of no interest to me.

I do not write with aspiration of being of interest or even understandable to you. Instead, I write for readers who may be interested and who, I trust, understand and evaluate the merits of what is said.

And, I'm sure you reach some. I too realize that what I write won't be understandable to you but there are some that will see and hear. The difference is, they will evaluate the merits of what our Father said...not the words of man.

Our goals are not the same.

You might have gotten that one right.

"Might have?"

What are your goals in these threads?

You said it so well yourself....."I write for readers who may be interested and who, I trust, understand and evaluate the merits of what is said."

So, ignore His Words if you wish. It is your choice.

Thank you for permission to do what I have done for sixty years – contentedly, confidently and without being intimidated by threats of “punishment� in an “afterlife� (that cannot be shown to be anything more than imagination).

What comes to mind are the words of Jesus when He said, "Why do ye not understand My speech? even because ye cannot hear My word.

Other words attributed to Jesus indicate that he deliberately spoke to NOT be understood.

Matthew 13:10And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"; 11Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted; 12For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him; 13Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

He was speaking to a different group of folks when He used the "other words."

[whirlwind]

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I do not, however, recognize pretenders or “representatives� as authentic.

Do you ever attempt to use bible quotations to prove that the bible or its stories are true?

I use Biblical quotes as God directs me.... I trust you realize by now that those you recognize as "pretenders" or "authentic" are of no interest to me. Our goals are not the same. So, ignore His Words if you wish. It is your choice. What comes to mind are the words of Jesus when He said, "Why do ye not understand My speech? even because ye cannot hear My word.

There are many who hear voices and attribute those voices to God instructing them in various ways...including members of the Taliban, Jim Jones, Joseph Smith, Paul, Mohamed,David,Timothy McVeigh, Rev Moon and the various and sundry mentally ill etc etc...what evidence can you provide to distinquish the voices you hear from the ones they heard?

He sends His prophets with His Word. At the same time the world is filled with false prophets...many pretending to be of Christ but they use their word or twist His. The purpose of the prophets is to turn hearts to The Father or to their father.

Malachi 4:6 And He shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Knowing the world is filled with false prophets He tells us.....

Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Jeremiah 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in My name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


I need to add....I don't "hear voices." I hear what is written in His Word. His Words speak spiritually. The Spirit reveals the meaning of the letter of the Word.

[whirlwind]

.
I do not, however, recognize pretenders or “representatives� as authentic.

Do you ever attempt to use bible quotations to prove that the bible or its stories are true?

I use Biblical quotes as God directs me.... I trust you realize by now that those you recognize as "pretenders" or "authentic" are of no interest to me. Our goals are not the same. So, ignore His Words if you wish. It is your choice. What comes to mind are the words of Jesus when He said, "Why do ye not understand My speech? even because ye cannot hear My word.

There are many who hear voices and attribute those voices to God instructing them in various ways...including members of the Taliban, Jim Jones, Joseph Smith, Paul, Mohamed,David,Timothy McVeigh, Rev Moon and the various and sundry mentally ill etc etc...what evidence can you provide to distinquish the voices you hear from the ones they heard?

Christians do believe that God talks to them and sometimes instructs them to do specific things. So, to illustrate your point

Person A (a christian) hears a voice in their head that says "Go kill Person B."

Now, Person A, being a christian, believes the Bible to be the word of God. So Person A will read the bible and take it into consideration. The Bible specifically says THOU SHALT NOT KILL.

So, Person A can realize that the voice telling him to go and kill person B is not from God because it goes aganist God's teachings.

Isn't a primary motive for being Christian the forgiveness of sin? Doesn't your God forgive all that you do in violation of His Commandments? The OT says 'thou shalt not kill'...the NT says all killing by Christians is forgiven'. Your God seems to change his 'mind' on occassion, making it hard to trust these 'voices'.

The New Testament doesn't say murder is forgiven. Rather it states.....

1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

[Benoni]

.
I do not, however, recognize pretenders or “representatives� as authentic.

Do you ever attempt to use bible quotations to prove that the bible or its stories are true?

I use Biblical quotes as God directs me.... I trust you realize by now that those you recognize as "pretenders" or "authentic" are of no interest to me. Our goals are not the same. So, ignore His Words if you wish. It is your choice. What comes to mind are the words of Jesus when He said, "Why do ye not understand My speech? even because ye cannot hear My word.

There are many who hear voices and attribute those voices to God instructing them in various ways...including members of the Taliban, Jim Jones, Joseph Smith, Paul, Mohamed,David,Timothy McVeigh, Rev Moon and the various and sundry mentally ill etc etc...what evidence can you provide to distinquish the voices you hear from the ones they heard?

Christians do believe that God talks to them and sometimes instructs them to do specific things. So, to illustrate your point

Person A (a christian) hears a voice in their head that says "Go kill Person B."

Now, Person A, being a christian, believes the Bible to be the word of God. So Person A will read the bible and take it into consideration. The Bible specifically says THOU SHALT NOT KILL.

So, Person A can realize that the voice telling him to go and kill person B is not from God because it goes aganist God's teachings.

Isn't a primary motive for being Christian the forgiveness of sin? Doesn't your God forgive all that you do in violation of His Commandments? The OT says 'thou shalt not kill'...the NT says all killing by Christians is forgiven'. Your God seems to change his 'mind' on occassion, making it hard to trust these 'voices'.

The New Testament doesn't say murder is forgiven. Rather it states.....

1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Attually the life here is age abiding life; man is not an eternal being. God is eternal; man has a beginning. The Greek words aion or aionios should be interpeted age or ages and never eternal.

[Zzyzx]

.

Person A (a christian) hears a voice in their head that says "Go kill Person B."

Now, Person A, being a christian, believes the Bible to be the word of God. So Person A will read the bible and take it into consideration. The Bible specifically says THOU SHALT NOT KILL.

So, Person A can realize that the voice telling him to go and kill person B is not from God because it goes aganist God's teachings.

Person R (Realist), “hears voices in his head� and concludes that is his own mind at work, wishing someone was dead. He makes a decision to not act upon that impulse because he realizes that it is not the right thing to do (within his own value system).

If the urge to kill (voice in the head) is particularly strong or persistent, person R realizes that he is hallucinating or has mental problems. In either case, he seeks medical attention.

Which person in the two examples above is the more rational individual?